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Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

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Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#61

Post by neilv »

PeterisP wrote: post #24
ghusto wrote: post #13

> The Dutch and Israelis are famously direct. They don’t mind confrontation, so usually speak their mind and take no offence. By contrast, East Asians are more likely to value collective harmony. This means that they avoid direct confrontation, so artfully use be more subtle and diplomatic language. I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matte…

In cultures where direct confrontation isn't accepted, intention does not matter , you simply can't do it - if someone believes that intention is all that matters, speaks their mind directly with e.g. some not-properly-veiled criticism (no matter how justified or needed), and justifies it with "I didn't aim to upset", even if they genuinely didn't aim that and everybody understands that they didn't aim to upset, they…

I have limited experience with this, but have started to wonder whether the harmonious interaction culture tends to be paired with extremely hierarchical "just find a way to do exactly what you were told to do, even if you know it will destroy the company" worker mindset.

So that, if someone comes in and calls out nonsensical, self-destructive organizational behavior, not only are feathers ruffled up the hierarchy, but workers can get upset as well.

I wonder whether calling out a problem is a double offense towards the workers: (1) disrupting the workers' beliefs that doing what they're told is how they do a good job; (2) the upsetting fact that someone is behaving disharmoniously in calling out a problem.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#62

Post by iamacyborg »

kzrdude wrote: post #32
arccy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water

I avoid both coffee and refined sugar and then the list of alternatives really shrinks. Herbal tea is a good one of course, and in a bar one can often get pure apple juice.

Wait, why is sugar bad but apple juice okay?

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#63

Post by kazinator »

> Why Do East Asian Firms Value Drinking?

Lack of a history of Christian puritanism?

America's historic relationship with alcohol was shaped by the loonies who fled there from Europe so they could left alone to practice their ascetic forms of Christianity.

A lot of phenomena in Asia cannot be properly understood if you lose sight of the lack of Christianity. For instance, could you have a mainstream, pop-band consisting of prepubescent boys called "Sexy Zone" in the USA? LOL ...

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#64

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

kelnos wrote: post #50
nox101 wrote: post #5

This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told.…

> My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...) Wow, I guess I just don't hang out with the same kinds of people you do (USA as well). I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash (on either side of it). And yet I've done plenty of drinking (I don't remember much of my 30s because o…

> I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash

I grew up drinking and lived in alcohol culture(s). At 25 I moved to another state, didn't drink and mostly circulated in non-drinking circles.

Before 25 I saw plenty of alcohol fueled fights. They weren't in bars but neither was I. I've been on both sides of drunk crashes (not driving) as were (possibly most of) my friends. As for family & friends, they ranged ~evenly from non-drinkers to heavy.

After 25 I saw few drinking related issues. I knew vastly more non-drinkers after 25 and can't recall any being hit by drunk drivers (unlike before 25).

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#65

Post by ryoshu »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #51
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might ac…

> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego u…

The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints.

As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#66

Post by FrankoDelMar »

rvba wrote: post #27
arccy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water

Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, don…

kombucha

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#67

Post by AndrewKemendo »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #51
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might ac…

> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego u…

Yes, the point is that it’s reducing the anxiety to unmask.

Your boss may in fact be an asshole and unmasking would make you feel more incautious about being yourself, which might mean a narcissistic outburst from all your pent up frustration.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#68

Post by rjsw »

rvba wrote: post #27
arccy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water

Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, don…

What is wrong with citron pressé?

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#69

Post by AniseAbyss »

tombert wrote: post #2

Even in the US, in tech firms, it's pretty common to have happy hours where everyone drinks a bit. I don't drink at all due to my sleep apnea, and don't even have caffeine after 1pm for the same reason, so I'm pretty much always in this kind of awkward position of sipping on a water throughout the night while coworkers get more and more inebriated. I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anyt…

[dead]

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#70

Post by neilv »

refracture wrote: post #30
samatman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whole lot of Mormons working for CIA and NSA. Just sayin.

Yeah but those same Mormons drink all the booze if there’s no other Mormons at the party.

That might be true in some cases, but I haven't seen it.

The Mormons I've seen tend to be more healthy clean living, than anything else.

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