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Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

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Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#41

Post by xkcd-sucks »

nox101 wrote: post #5

This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told.…

As long as the "big man in the room takes a shot, everyone takes a shot" rule isn't maliciously invoked, you have functional ALDH genetics, aren't a woman, etc.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#42

Post by matwood »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #7
arccy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water

Do you think they would have a better time if they were drinking a sprite or something? Being with drunk people when you're sober is not fun for either party regardless.

There’s a big range between sober and drunk. The key to work drinks/happy hour is go for a single drink and leave. You get the best parts of being social and avoid the vast majority of the issues that come from people drinking with colleagues.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#43

Post by tpm »

ghusto wrote: post #13

> The Dutch and Israelis are famously direct. They don’t mind confrontation, so usually speak their mind and take no offence. By contrast, East Asians are more likely to value collective harmony. This means that they avoid direct confrontation, so artfully use be more subtle and diplomatic language. I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matte…

It is (or will be perceived as) a display of power, or a challenge to the powerful. So a challenge to the status quo, thus a challenge to the "collective harmony".

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#44

Post by matwood »

standardUser wrote: post #34
rvba wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, don…

If you can tolerate a very tiny amount of alcohol, bitters with soda is a great cocktail substitute. There's also "hop water" beverages that I really like that have no calories.

Non-alcoholic beers have also gotten quite good.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#45

Post by tqi »

> A month ago, I didn’t know. Now, after my interviews with people in China and Korea, the answer is very obvious.

I don't know if I think a month is sufficient time to make such concrete and definitive statements. In my experience, there is rarely a tidy explanation for something as complex as cultural norms - this feels more likely to be a "just so story" + hubris than the clear answer. American Finance and Consulting firms are extremely direct and confrontational, and their employees aren't exactly tee totalers.

The article as a whole also felt like a value judgement on the relative merits of high / low context cultures...

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#46

Post by kelnos »

I know I have my biases, cultural and otherwise, so I shouldn't say that one way is right and another is wrong, but...

To me, this widely-acknowledged need to go get drunk with bosses, colleagues, and business associates in order to facilitate communication feels like a tacit admission that the reserved, low-confrontation, hierarchical communication styles are a hindrance, and that people would be better off being direct, (politely) confrontational, and egalitarian.

And yes, I know that I say this as someone who is more used to the latter. But I, personally, am somewhat conflict-avoidant, and do couch my criticism in positive, flowery language (if I present that criticism at all) often. And frankly I don't like that, and think I'd be able to express myself better, to the benefit of both myself and whoever I'm talking to, if I could be more blunt and direct about these sorts of things.

Honestly I just can't imagine living in Japanese or Korean society, having to conform to these sorts of conversational rules. I guess the thing that really gets to me is the hierarchical, automatic-respect-for-the-boss stuff. Respect is earned, not given just because someone promoted you. And regardless, I think the default should be one of greater familiarity.

Clearly these other societies are able to function with whatever setup they've mutually agreed upon over centuries or millennia, so it's not like no one is able to communicate effectively. But it just seems so exhausting and stressful to me to have to act that way.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#47

Post by tombert »

arccy wrote: post #3
tombert wrote: post #2

Even in the US, in tech firms, it's pretty common to have happy hours where everyone drinks a bit. I don't drink at all due to my sleep apnea, and don't even have caffeine after 1pm for the same reason, so I'm pretty much always in this kind of awkward position of sipping on a water throughout the night while coworkers get more and more inebriated. I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anyt…

there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water

I don't really do sugary drinks, so Diet Coke/Diet Pepsi is out as well. I also just actively dislike tea and coffee, so I don't really want to go with any kind of decaf version of those either.

So yeah, if the bar has Diet 7-up or Diet Caffeine Free Coke, then I'm fine, but at least in the NYC area I've not really ever seen that at a bar. They're not even guaranteed to have them at grocery stores.

As it stands, the one thing that basically every bar is guaranteed to have that's sugar free and caffeine free is water, so that's what I end up defaulting to. It feels a bit lame but I really like being able to sleep.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#48

Post by t-3 »

genman wrote: post #4

In its extreme alcohol is a truth serum. The ones who don't drink want to keep their secrets to themselves and can't be trusted.

Not really. Alcohol can make people stupid, but it can't make them tell the truth. You will hear far more lies and boasts from a drunk than you will deep dark secrets.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#49

Post by Fargren »

rvba wrote: post #27
arccy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water

Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, don…

Yerba Mate is very caffeinated, and I wouldn't say very different from tea, aside from the social norms around it.

Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

#50

Post by kelnos »

nox101 wrote: post #5

This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told.…

> My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...)

Wow, I guess I just don't hang out with the same kinds of people you do (USA as well). I don't think I've ever witnessed a bar fight, and no one I know has been involved in a drunk driving crash (on either side of it). And yet I've done plenty of drinking (I don't remember much of my 30s because of it, sadly).

Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people.*

I agree that alcohol is a good social lubricant, and sure, it can be an aid (or even a shortcut) to social bonding. But this article made me believe that, in some East Asian cultures, alcohol is pretty much required to get them to communicate effectively about certain things. That seems... not particularly safe or healthy, not just physically, but emotionally too.

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