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Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

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Re: Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

#141
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterise the history of the internet as having started with "everything decentralised". if I'm not missing something, it was completely the other way around. introduction of general populous to the internet was through internet gatekeepers like aol or msn, with unimaginable convenience (and centralisation). that convenience lost, in the end, to the world wide web, where a ton of single individuals coul…

I mean, yes, you're missing something, the first and foremost, Internet. :) Its sole purpose was to solve the information access problem in a decentralized way. That was the rationale behind the ARPANET project. Then, DNS came, which is also a decentralized solution to the name resolution problem. BGP routing is also similarly decentralized. World Wide Web itself is decentralized. IRC is decentralized. These technolo…

tbf I mentioned the www era decentralisation mostly.

but I agree. as mentioned earlier, actually the fact that decentralisation has happened multiple times before, while convenience was kind of against it, is the reason I think it will most definitely happen again as well. I'm even assuming it won't be far off by considering similarities in some respects to the situation before two other large-scale decentralisations we've observed (www and apps), though of course that is the same as predicting when the next platform shift will occur and that's not someone can claim with meaningful precision, IMO.

Re: Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the olden days when bloggers walked the earth, emitting lengthy posts over RSS, they solved this problem in two ways: Firstly, by appending forms to the end of the post where someone could type out a reply that was more likely to be a few sentences or paragraph, rather than a full-blown essay. Secondly, by inventing "TrackBack", a standardized way for someone else's blog software to say "hey I wrote some stuff on…

Hmmmm. Now I'm wondering it Askimet are selling every blog comment they scan to OpenAI (and Palantir)?

Askimet is completely owned by Automattic (the corporate entity attached to the main author of Wordpress). And Wikipedia says this of Automattic:

In February of 2024, Automattic announced that it would begin selling user data from Tumblr and WordPress.com to Midjourney and OpenAI.[27]

27: https://www.404media.co/tumblr-and-wordpress-to-sell-users-d...

"Announced" may be too strong; the link is to an internal email leak discussing this possibility, but "Automattic may be experimenting with selling data to midjourney/openai" is still pretty close to "Automattic's selling user data". Hell, I can see the positive spin blog post announcing this: "They're also giving Automattic a bunch of free cycles on improving Askimet's spam/ham filters, in exchange for a look at every other comment anyone is sending through Askimet ever. We're aware this is a thorny ethical issue; click HERE for the archives of our mailing list dedicated to this project."

As for Palantir, my inner paranoid says that if the FBI/NSA/etc wants this data, they have some way of getting whether or not a deal with a public front like Palantir is involved.

Re: Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

#143
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmmm. Now I'm wondering it Askimet are selling every blog comment they scan to OpenAI (and Palantir)?

I think it's safe to assume at this point that all public content and most private content on the internet is being fed to both AI and American intelligence services.

And China. And Mossad...

Re: Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, whats fundamentally difficult about setting up a federated instance? Its just a db, and backend/frontend service. You can put in a docker container and run it in minutes. Things tend to get centralized because users want to be where users are. Developing another platform doesn't change that. Even if that platform just straight up does not allow centralization, it doesn't stop people from using centralized platf…

Try setting up a Matrix server[0]. Or Mastadon[1]. This isn't hard for people like you and me, or probably most of HN. But it is difficult for the public. It is hard to set up. It is hard to keep up. It's costly. I think maybe a good comparison is to PGP. PGP's greatest flaw was that you could reply back that you couldn't decrypt and the sender would resend the message decrypted. Encryption hasn't made its way into t…

Those issues just seem like a matter of creating the tooling for it no? Setting up a blog was difficult when you had to get your own computer hardware, setup the networking, install the software and run it 24/7. Now its just hosted somewhere with a click of a button.

Nothing about a federated instance is fundamentally any more challenging than setting up any other service.

Looks like its available here as a managed instance https://elest.io/open-source/lemmy

Anyway, I think the bigger issue here is most users simply don't have the need to. I was big into this whole "lets decentralize the internet, screw these big corps". I setup a lemmy instance, then just forgot about it entirely. What the hell am I going to do with it?

Re: Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try setting up a Matrix server[0]. Or Mastadon[1]. This isn't hard for people like you and me, or probably most of HN. But it is difficult for the public. It is hard to set up. It is hard to keep up. It's costly. I think maybe a good comparison is to PGP. PGP's greatest flaw was that you could reply back that you couldn't decrypt and the sender would resend the message decrypted. Encryption hasn't made its way into t…

Those issues just seem like a matter of creating the tooling for it no? Setting up a blog was difficult when you had to get your own computer hardware, setup the networking, install the software and run it 24/7. Now its just hosted somewhere with a click of a button. Nothing about a federated instance is fundamentally any more challenging than setting up any other service. Looks like its available here as a managed i…

I think partially yes. This was my mention of Signal and WhatsApp. If I've learned anything it is that UI/UX matters just as much as the backend. Which kinda sucks, but also at least helps us know how to make better adoption of better things and allows us to compete with existing objectively worse products. I hope that UI/UX doesn't matter more, but it is a fear I have because I think most people just don't get it and these things are too abstract because our world is so complex that specialization is a necessity but we still delude ourselves on believing our knowledge has wide coverage. This is how I really think about interdisciplinary collaboration and diversity of thought.

On the no side, there are literal dollar costs to decentralization in that you have to host the server and pay for that bandwidth. I'm conflicted about this because the cost is always being paid somewhere. Like there's examples of how people will not buy a product if shipping is not free even if the total price is less than the price of the version with free shipping. So if you see your internet bill go up you might ignore how other bills might go down (things like healthcare might be a good real life example of this complexity in evaluation?). I mean isn't Microsoft distributing windows updates through P2P now? Shifting bandwidth costs to users? Are streaming services getting in on this?

> Anyway, I think the bigger issue here is most users simply don't have the need to. I was big into this whole "lets decentralize the internet, screw these big corps". I setup a lemmy instance, then just forgot about it entirely. What the hell am I going to do with it?

And I think this is actually coupled. There is the problem that anything with a network effect naturally shifts towards centralization and thus monopolization. Because the utility of the product is the centralization even if by centralization we mean "people are here." I think this makes a great case for why we would want decentralized services, because it enables more competition as we allow the switching of platforms to not cause such disruptions. But I think this part can't happen until it is essentially trivial to do the setup part, and until there is enough critical mass of existing servers. Maybe we could force running servers or default to that?

Somewhat connected I was thinking over the weekend about how to actually push technology forward and thinking about how Google constantly kills products far too early. I wonder if the actual best move is to reframe our thinking around what Apple is doing with the Vision Pro. Product isn't great but they push it because they know that people will buy it because of the name brand. They can't fix all the problems with the system until they get enough people using the product, but shipping out samples and trials is too expensive. So do we as consumers (and especially those with disposable incomes and especially those with excessive incomes) rather need to reframe to think that we should be using our purchases in part simply to vote for technological directions and not entirely on utility? Such as if you want to see VR/AR become a reality is it worthwhile to buy a VP even if you never open the box? Because this is the signal that companies are internally using to gauge product viability and that metric is often misaligned due to things like people actually wanting the product but the implementation is just not there yet so they don't buy it?

Sorry if this ended up being ranty, but I think it is potentially relevant here because I think people do want these decentralized services/platforms given how much negative attitudes there are to the centralized versions. Same with privacy and security. But I think a big part of this might be the economics and the path to viable product being difficult playing as big of a role as the literal technology itself. Maybe I'm off base?

Re: Can we get more decentralised than the Fediverse?

#146

For me, the peak of decentralization efforts were Beaker Browser [1] and Stealth [2]. But one project didn't make enough money and the author of the other one got doxxed into oblivion, so I guess we can't have nice things. A peer to peer browser has so much potential, I wish somebody else might give it a try. Imagine the possibilities when you can just share the content with others, without needing a web server. Does…

How do you handle outdated pages? A p2p file sharing is one thing. A file is pretty static, but websites change very often. By the time your file got shared all the way across the planet you might be already displaying something else. Do they all have to keep track of the original file?

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