I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#361

Post by rremoncake » Fri, May 11, 2012, 4:12 AM UTC

UPDATE:

First of all. Thank you. I made this post with hopes that someone out there can learn something from this. Needless to say I got a lot more than what I was expecting. I'm humbled by the attention and support I've gotten from everyone. Strangers and friends alike. The 10k I'll be getting will be going to charity to celebrate the integrity, compassion and passion demonstrated by the community at large.

I want to especially thank the Hacker News community for helping this get the attention I believe it deserved. The discussions it generated in the comments section was fruitful for everyone. Again, thank you all. None of this would've been possible without your help.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#362

Post by creamyhorror » Fri, May 11, 2012, 4:14 AM UTC

andr3w321 wrote: post #79

Sorry but you need to take responsibility for forgetting to ask for the bonus at the end of six months while you were still employed by Miso. If you had remembered in all likelihood you would have been paid in full and all would have been well. As it is, you left the company on bad terms and decide to publicly shame them. You will have trouble getting future employment as a result. Your future earnings has just poten…

> How would you feel if after someone fired you they blogged about all the mistakes you made on the job publicly referring to you by name?

Totally not the same thing. If you make mistakes on the job you have not broken any contract. In this case, Miso (almost) broke a contract. That's why the public naming is justified. Releasing details of an employee's performance is not (unless there's an expectation that the company will do so).

Also, this guy has won a fair amount of approbation from many posters here and a few hirers. There will be certain employers who would be more willing to hire him because of his principled stance, even if there are more who are hesitant because they believe unethical practice should not be outed publicly. It's a fair risk to take if he thinks it'll filter out dodgy employers in future and is worth the benefit to the community.

We should be applauding this guy, not criticizing his choice.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#363

Post by creamyhorror » Fri, May 11, 2012, 4:23 AM UTC

davidu wrote: post #358

adgar wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fortunately, we all now know that OpenDNS and anything else David Ulevitch is involved with in the future is a company to avoid. It seems that's true only if you value treating people with respect when you aren't legally obligated to.

Again, a wild and broad conclusion based on my perspective that perks for employees are valid for actual employees, and not former employees. The company should have paid it out when he earned it. The employee should have requested it before quitting. Neither event happened. It doesn't matter if the employee quit two days ago, two weeks ago or two decades ago. He's not an employee now and should just move on with his…

"Too bad you forgot sucks for you" is not what the law says, nor is it the ethical thing to do, IMO.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#364

Post by tobtoh » Fri, May 11, 2012, 4:31 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #353

tobtoh wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge. Would it? I think the judge will see it as 'refer somebody who stays for 6 months and submit a claim to get your bonus'. I doubt any documentation on the bonus would say that you get the money automatically credited - so any T&C on how to claim the bonus would legitimately be considered part of the agreement. Since the employee failed the last…

He didn't fail it, it was just a bit late.

He left the company - he failed the condition. Once you leave a company, all your contacts are ended.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#365

Post by nknight » Fri, May 11, 2012, 4:51 AM UTC

davidu wrote: post #357

nknight wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your loyalty to your employees should include respect for contracts and the law. This man satisfied the conditions for payment of the bonus before he left the company, he is entitled to the money. That you would not give it to him makes you little better than a thief. Fortunately, we all now know that OpenDNS and anything else David Ulevitch is involved with in the future is a company to avoid.

Do you always come to these conclusions so quickly? I'm sharing my opinion, based on my experiences. I also explained that at my company perks are for employees, a status that the OP no longer maintains at Miso. Neither of us know the specifics of their deal. I think you've jumped a few steps ahead of where you ought to be at this juncture. Perhaps you simply disagree with my point of view. I think HN is often one-si…

You have announced to the world, entirely of your own accord, that you will flout the law and steal money from your employees. This is your doing, not mine. Is it also your habit to blame others for your own shortcomings?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#366

Post by cncool » Fri, May 11, 2012, 6:17 AM UTC

jroes wrote: post #166

patio11 wrote: post #113

First step after an employer says no to paying you money owed should ALWAYS be a letter on dead tree saying exactly what your email said, signed by your lawyer. You'll come out $9,700 ahead because folks understand that fobbing off lawyers has consequences. Your lawyer would have printed out email #2 ("You nuked a DB. Screw you."), called it a pretext to deny you rightfully earned wages , and told the company to have…

This is great advice. I just wanted to make the typical legal fees clear to keep things realistic. I'm not sure if it's the same with this type of case, but for personal injury claims, the typical lawyer contract entitles the attorney to 1/3 of the dollars won plus fees. Of course, 2/3 of 10k is still > 0.

"Of course, 2/3 of 10k is still > 0."

Depends on the language.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#367

Post by yoav » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:23 AM UTC

yoav wrote: post #96

This is like deciding to leave a company and emailing them a month later to make sure their product roadmap is still the same. The bonus was an incentive, which you clearly didn't care about because: a) you forgot about it, and b) you referred your friend who you would have referred anyway Making it "public" now is just vindictive. If you forgetting about your own bonus for months, and then another month after leavin…

The guy made it sound like an off hand comment in an email. From what I read in his post it did not sound at all like a legally binding contract.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#368

Post by nandemo » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:34 AM UTC

eli wrote: post #42

ghshephard wrote: post #30

This part sounds dubious: "For example, we don't pay people outside of Miso when they refer us candidates that we hire." Any recruiter worth their salt is getting a minimum of 15% on first years salary right now, and many are getting 20%. On a typical $150K Salary that would be $30K if the same candidate comes through a recruiter. Perhaps it's just the case that Miso doesn't use external recruiters, and so the statem…

I would think very few startups use recruiters -- who has that much extra cash laying around?

Hackruiter especializes in startups:

http://hackruiter.com

I also know of a recruiting agency in Japan that specializes in startups. Some companies have the too-many-resumes problem, but many startups have the converse problem. If nobody knows about you then you'll have a hard time finding qualified people.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#369

Post by wpietri » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:51 AM UTC

slantyyz wrote: post #334

wpietri wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to that. Part of the job of a manager is to look out for the people doing the actual work. Taking ten large from a trusting employee is bad. Blaming the employee for leaving the cover sheet off his TPS reports is worse.

So none of the responsibility of what happened belongs to the OP? I am not siding with his former employer, but anyone who has any work experience knows that they should make sure the cheques have cleared as soon as they have an idea that they want to leave. It's a cynical view, but people should always expect a company to be less than cooperative once they leave, even when the company is in the wrong. I have found t…

If you get beat up walking down the street, is that your responsibility? Sure, in the sense that any idiot can always find ways that you could have avoided it if only you had done something differently. And in the very obvious sense that nobody else can suffer through the pain of a broken nose for you.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#370

Post by wpietri » Fri, May 11, 2012, 7:54 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #186

temphn wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 This guy Joshua Z.H. Wu does not come out looking good in this blog post. He doesn't realize it, but he just lost a lot more than $10k in lifetime earnings too. Someone willing to nuke something that their friends/coworkers built in this fashion is just not someone you ever want to hire. You find this kind of crap on Google, and you just don't call him back or offer an interview. After all employers are human too,…

I find the reactions here fascinating. There's a hugely bimodal distribution here between people who sympathize with the employee (I'm in that set: the guy's out ten thousand dollars, who cares about feelings or "employers being human" at that scale?) and the employer. I'd guess the latter are mostly founders, or people lurking here in the hope of someday being founders. And that makes me sad that so many of you thin…

As a founder, I definitely sympathize more with the employee. I want my engineers thinking about engineering, not bullshit paperwork, or how to prevent me from screwing them.

Miso gained $10k in cash, but they lost a ton more than that in employee trust. A foolish bargain, I'd say.