I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#351

Post by creamyhorror » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:17 AM UTC

backspace wrote: post #233

cconroy wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I argue that if he didn't do it -- it would be a dis -service to the community. I look at it like if it were simple assault involving you and an assailant. Since you were not really injured you decide not to press charges against them. Let's say the assailant does this again in the future -- hurting somebody marginally. And they do press charges. To the court this looks like a first offense and they let the assailant…

I agree with your central theme that more data is better. That's why as I suggested, he should have handled it on his own and taken legal action against them, so that there was a clear legal record of such behavior by Miso.

Whether or not he should have taken legal action against them, the important thing is to get the data out on a wide public forum like HN. Information benefits us when it's widely distributed, not when it's only confined to a private lawsuit.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#352

Post by mikeash » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:20 AM UTC

dhyasama wrote: post #336

mikeash wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? This would work pretty well in small claims, which costs not much at all.

Not sure about his location, but in New York small claims is limited to $5k.

It's stated elsethread that CA is $7,500. So that adds $2,500 to the cost, still well short of the claimed $50,000.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#353

Post by mikeash » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:21 AM UTC

tobtoh wrote: post #331

mikeash wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company agreed to pay him a certain amount of money if he referred somebody who stayed for at least 6 months. He referred somebody who stayed for at least 6 months. The company thus owes him the money. His employment status with the company has nothing to do with it, unless that was stated as part of the deal up-front. I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge. Produce whatever docume…

> I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge. Would it? I think the judge will see it as 'refer somebody who stays for 6 months and submit a claim to get your bonus'. I doubt any documentation on the bonus would say that you get the money automatically credited - so any T&C on how to claim the bonus would legitimately be considered part of the agreement. Since the employee failed the last…

He didn't fail it, it was just a bit late.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#354

Post by veemjeem » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:21 AM UTC

jasontan wrote: post #75

rremoncake wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I do want some attention. But really, I think anyone here can see that I have a lot more to lose here than to gain. If this was a matter of pride I'd leave it as a Facebook post for my friends and call it a day. To me, this is the right thing to do, not the smart thing. Unfortunately the two don't necessary come in pairs.

How is this the right thing? I don't imagine that your former coworkers are having a good day today with this kind of publicity. They had nothing to do with this matter, and did nothing to deserve the bad attention. I understand that it's important to get the word out, but for me, I'd put the people I care about above anything else. All I'm saying is that this could have been handled more professionally.

I see this as doing your former coworkers a favor actually. They might not even know what type of person their boss is behind the scenes. The former coworkers might actually be happy that their boss was called out on shenanigans, to prevent future sleazy behavior.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#355

Post by ditojim » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:23 AM UTC

chasing wrote: post #105

ditojim wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the email could have said 10k for _current_ employees or something to that effect. i am also leaning towards siding with the founders here, not knowing all the facts. how much time and productivity did it cost the company when this employee lost the data? more or less than 10k? either side of it, does it really make sense to hand someone a 10k bonus after they made a major mistake and then quit shortly after?

It's two separate issues. Sounds like they owe him $10k. If they also want to pursue a lawsuit over his data screw-up, they should. But that's unrelated. (I think such a suit would be tossed, given his screw-up seems to be based upon Miso not having suitable back-ups, which: The fuck?)

and they very well might owe him the 10k. i was simply trying to consider the other side, which we don't know as much about, and i am assuming they made the best decision considering all the circumstances. maybe not. really, the employee should have collected this bonus prior to quitting his job. this could have been avoided if he was paying attention. i'd have a calendar appointment set for the date i was to receive that bonus, if i was that employee.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#356

Post by veemjeem » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:27 AM UTC

pbiggar wrote: post #228

davidu wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my company, it's a perk. And I love paying it out. And my loyalty is to my employees. I would bleed for them. But it's not to my former employees. As I approach 100 employees, many who have been with me for 4+ years, I find my stance to be entirely in their favor.

I don't think this relates to the discussion at all. Based on the article, it sounds like it was not merely a perk at Miso. If you say you are going to pay it (in writing, etc), you must pay it. At your company, I'm sure you've done the correct legal things to make sure that it's defined as a perk. But I don't see any evidence that that's how Miso has done it. BTW, showing no loyalty to your former employees is a bla…

I'm not so sure that his actions would be considered "disloyal" to his former employees. If anything, his former employees might be happy that their founder was called out on a mistake, to prevent the founder from doing other sleazy tactics on current employees.

I'm not going to defend my boss if he did something morally deficient, and I would be happy if my coworkers has the cajones to call him out.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#357

Post by davidu » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:32 AM UTC

nknight wrote: post #224

davidu wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my company, it's a perk. And I love paying it out. And my loyalty is to my employees. I would bleed for them. But it's not to my former employees. As I approach 100 employees, many who have been with me for 4+ years, I find my stance to be entirely in their favor.

Your loyalty to your employees should include respect for contracts and the law. This man satisfied the conditions for payment of the bonus before he left the company, he is entitled to the money. That you would not give it to him makes you little better than a thief. Fortunately, we all now know that OpenDNS and anything else David Ulevitch is involved with in the future is a company to avoid.

Do you always come to these conclusions so quickly? I'm sharing my opinion, based on my experiences. I also explained that at my company perks are for employees, a status that the OP no longer maintains at Miso. Neither of us know the specifics of their deal.

I think you've jumped a few steps ahead of where you ought to be at this juncture. Perhaps you simply disagree with my point of view. I think HN is often one-sided, so I sometimes delude myself into thinking I should contribute. But now you have resorted to calling me a thief and encouraging others (along with Google indexes) to never do business with me. I think you've stepped a bit over the line.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#358

Post by davidu » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:34 AM UTC

adgar wrote: post #238

nknight wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your loyalty to your employees should include respect for contracts and the law. This man satisfied the conditions for payment of the bonus before he left the company, he is entitled to the money. That you would not give it to him makes you little better than a thief. Fortunately, we all now know that OpenDNS and anything else David Ulevitch is involved with in the future is a company to avoid.

> Fortunately, we all now know that OpenDNS and anything else David Ulevitch is involved with in the future is a company to avoid. It seems that's true only if you value treating people with respect when you aren't legally obligated to.

Again, a wild and broad conclusion based on my perspective that perks for employees are valid for actual employees, and not former employees. The company should have paid it out when he earned it. The employee should have requested it before quitting. Neither event happened. It doesn't matter if the employee quit two days ago, two weeks ago or two decades ago. He's not an employee now and should just move on with his life.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#359

Post by ckdarby » Fri, May 11, 2012, 3:57 AM UTC

underwater wrote: post #159

ckdarby wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* So you can tell me the exact backup times of everything at Facebook for your machine right? You're an engineer at Facebook therefore under your broad assumption you should be performing the exact same of your statement. If tomorrow everything was to fail at Facebook & there was no data recovery you're saying that everyone in the company should come blame you because well, hell, you're an engineer there after all...…

According to their site Miso have four engineers. At that scale there each and every engineer is responsibility for how things are run. If you want to only do what is assigned to you then you shouldn't be working at a startup. I've worked at small companies who'd punted on revision control and backups, and I made sure those things were put in place. When I haven't had the knowledge or access I've bought up the issue…

Oh! Just to clear things up a bit more... it just earned him $10K :)

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#360

Post by creamyhorror » Fri, May 11, 2012, 4:04 AM UTC

arbales wrote: post #294

accin wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The idea of a referral bonus is rewarding someone for /growing/ the team, and if you leave before that term is up, or if you leave before you file for the bonus, it's ridiculous to ask for it later – especially when you've already deflated your good will with a company What is the "term" that you're referring to in "leaving before the term?" From the blog post, it seems like the author "grew" the team by successfu…

"or if you leave before you file for the bonus" my point is asking for a bonus for growing the team /after/ you've left, thereby shrinking the team, is kinda silly.

You are conflating different issues. The only relevant issue here is that he fulfilled his end of an agreement: to refer an employee who completes 6 months at the company. That is done, and he is owed the referral fee/bonus. Whether he left the company after he did the referral is immaterial. By default the debt the company owes him doesn't simply disappear.