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I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

jzhwu.blogspot.com

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Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#331

Post by tobtoh »

mikeash wrote: post #185
cletus wrote: post #130

"Name and shame" is a thorny issue. Opponents are right in the same way you shouldn't badmouth former employers in job interviewers. It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on. When companies screw you out of money, you should name and shame them (IMHO). Trust me, over the years I've probably lost out on all told $50,000 or more that people never paid. In some cases it…

The company agreed to pay him a certain amount of money if he referred somebody who stayed for at least 6 months. He referred somebody who stayed for at least 6 months. The company thus owes him the money. His employment status with the company has nothing to do with it, unless that was stated as part of the deal up-front. I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge. Produce whatever docume…

> I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge.

Would it? I think the judge will see it as 'refer somebody who stays for 6 months and submit a claim to get your bonus'. I doubt any documentation on the bonus would say that you get the money automatically credited - so any T&C on how to claim the bonus would legitimately be considered part of the agreement. Since the employee failed the last part of the condition, the company would win.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#332

Post by drats »

netrus wrote: post #249

I am shocked, not because things like this happen, but because a broad group of posters at HN seems to justify Miso's behavior, which was legally as wrong as morally (and strategically wrong as well). I had never expected to see such reaction from so many HN characters. That's a long list of people I wish never to do business with.

I like how they are saying he shouldn't have said it in public but have their contact information or real names in their profile while stating they agree with breaking contracts and screwing employees.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#333

Post by thaumaturgy »

zasz wrote: post #329
thaumaturgy wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with the relatedness of those incidents. Again, since apparently people missed it: Regardless of whether or not Miso is right to evade their promise of a bonus, I'm not so quick to heap sympathy upon rremoncake. You hire a plumber to do a major job. You're in a hurry. You tell the plumber, I'll pay you a bonus if you finish this by (date). The plumber accidentally floods a downstairs room in the…

I'm kind of amazed that most of your contributions to this thread have been about telling people that they're wrong for feeling a certain way. That's like me telling you you're wrong for liking code. You agreed that Miso clearly owes him money. That is why people are sympathetic to this guy. He is owed a lot of money.

Alright. Since people keep arguing to things I haven't actually said, I am going to start posting a "Comment Bounty" (working title). After all, money seems to be the one thing that everyone on HN can understand.

If you can find any comment of mine in this thread where I told someone "they were wrong for feeling a certain way", I will pay you $100.

I am not kidding.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#334

Post by slantyyz »

wpietri wrote: post #306
dudeguy999 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Failing to file a referral bonus form while you were an employee is really your fault. Congratulations, you're an asshole that I never want to work with.

Amen to that. Part of the job of a manager is to look out for the people doing the actual work. Taking ten large from a trusting employee is bad. Blaming the employee for leaving the cover sheet off his TPS reports is worse.

So none of the responsibility of what happened belongs to the OP?

I am not siding with his former employer, but anyone who has any work experience knows that they should make sure the cheques have cleared as soon as they have an idea that they want to leave.

It's a cynical view, but people should always expect a company to be less than cooperative once they leave, even when the company is in the wrong. I have found this to be even more true when dealing with smaller companies and startups.

When money is involved, it's better to be realistic than idealistic.

It's your own responsibility to tie up loose ends before you leave. After you leave, you should work with the assumption that you'll be the only adult at the table when dealing with your former employer.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#335

Post by renata »

refurb wrote: post #103
rb2k_ wrote: post #35

Honestly, the answers that the Miso founders gave seemed very professional and I think am a bit on their side in this one. If OP had asked for the bonus while still being at Miso, it seems like he would simply have gotten it. Seeing as a non-contractual bonus is an investment in the employee that the company does in addition to the usual compensation, and seeing as OP quit on his own and doesn't have a compensation a…

I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't this fall under "promissory estoppel"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel

Not unless he took action depending on the $10k, which it certainly doesn't seem like he did since he forgot about it for a while.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#336

Post by dhyasama »

mikeash wrote: post #319
blantonl wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholehearted agree, but.. I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge This whole issue would probably cost 50k just to get in front of a judge.

Why? This would work pretty well in small claims, which costs not much at all.

Not sure about his location, but in New York small claims is limited to $5k.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#337

Post by Symmetry »

backspace wrote: post #239
ajross wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you I'm not being one sided here; jzhwu and Miso clearly didn't part on good terms. It seems he's at least mildly incompetant. And he's clearly profane and confrontational. It's entirely plausible that the leadership team at Miso hates this guys guts for valid reasons and doesn't want to pay him a cent they don't have to. And if this was a forgotten poster from his office or a lost book, no one would care. B…

Yes, debt can be (and usually is) zeroed out when you leave a company. As I explained in another comment, most companies (don't know about Miso) make you sign an agreement during your exit interview that the company does not owe you anything except X, Y, Z items that are enumerated clearly (these usually include your last paycheck and check for unpaid vacation days).

I've also never heard about anyone ever signing something like that at an exit interview. Why on Earth would someone sign something like that anyways? At my last job at BAE:IS they tried to get me to sign an NDA when I left, but I had to refuse for various reasons and eventually they were satisfied with a nice note explaining those reasons paper clipped to the NDA form in my file.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#338

Post by bigiain »

justinhj wrote: post #305
calinet6 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost by definition, we're talking about sums of money with very little marginal impact on the company; those same sums often have unpredictably huge impacts on employees. This should be the way every employer sees bonuses. The have huge potential negative and positive impacts, with most of the negative being mitigated by adhering to the rule, "don't be a dick." When in doubt, pay them anyway. The complex positive…

It's really not the same as giving refunds to a customer. Keeping your customers happy is really important. Keeping your employees happy is also important. Keeping ex-employees happy is really not that important. Personally I might have paid it out, after all they got the referral so it's fair. But it's not MY company's money. In my experience as a games programmer bonuses were very rarely paid to people that left. T…

"Keeping your employees happy is also important. Keeping ex-employees happy is really not that important."

I wonder if the people making the "lets not pay him" decision have discussed the issue with the people who are hiring their next employees for them? (Or the managers who're asking existing employees to refer friends with referal bonuses of now dubious reliability?)

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#339

Post by eavc »

Do those that do the hiring communicate with each other about especially bad behavior by employees?

Then it is equitable that those who seek employment communicate with each other about especially bad behavior by employers.

I applaud your courage in posting this.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#340

Post by bigiain »

tptacek wrote: post #189
chasing wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a bonus. It's payment for services rendered. They offered $10k for a service. He performed the service. Say I take a cab home from the airport. The money I give the cabbie upon arrival isn't a bonus -- it's payment for services rendered. (The tip is the bonus.)

You guys can both be right and it still doesn't matter. If you're going to offer bonuses or incentive comp of any sort, plan on paying them . You should be allergic to any reason for not paying short of "there is no credible claim to being owed this bonus". It's definitely true that bonus programs are usually intended for existing employees. Concrete example: my last employer blew out their numbers the year I left th…

"Most of the (unstated) point of the bonus was employee retention. I was unretainable. Paying me a giant bonus was irrational."

This is why I feel _some_ sympathy for Miso - they've got a scheme intended to improve retention. They then put in a set of requirements, goals, and milestones that didn't provide appropriate incentives for the behaviour they wanted to promote - they _weren't_ looking to reward guys who were going to bail after 12 months for hooking up their friends who were going to jump ship in 7 months. But they chose a set of metrics that means the OP had every right to feel entitled to his $10k.

But Miso have handled it _very_ badly (on the assumption that the blog post is an accurate reflection at least of how the poster saw the situation unfold).

If I could upvote your last sentence several more times, I would…

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