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I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

jzhwu.blogspot.com

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Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#221

Post by zopa »

temphn wrote: post #203
mikeash wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking for money you're owed never makes you a "douche". It doesn't take stones to ask for what you're owed just because you caused some problems. There is no link between the two! I'm astonished that anyone thinks there is. There's absolutely no leeway to say, "I don't like what you did recently, therefore I'm not going to pay you the money you're owed for something completely unrelated."

There sure is leeway: no signed contract. If he had left on good terms they would have paid the bonus, no question. He didn't and his fuckup cost them a lot more than $10k. At this point, dig in their heels. He says an email is a contract? OK, well, two can play that game. I'd bet that on the bottom of several of those emails there was something about "this email is only addressed to the sender, it may not be reposte…

Contracts need an offer, acceptance, and consideration. "Consideration" just means that both sides should stand to gain something from the agreement.

Non-disclosure text at the bottom of an email seems like a real stretch for that. Of course it depends on the jurisdiction and the case law.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#222

Post by thaumaturgy »

nknight wrote: post #218
thaumaturgy wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's a mistake I've made. The difference between me and this guy is that I wouldn't've turned around and asked the company for a bunch of money afterward. And what, exactly, do you think I owe him an apology for?

Insulting him and telling him he shouldn't ask for money he is clearly owed because of a mistake we've all made. Actually, that second part is an insult, too. So, really, just being incredibly insulting. That you wouldn't ask for the money is irrelevant. We're not required by any law, moral, or ethic to go through life as a doormat. At this point, money has been stolen from him, just as if they'd taken it from his ba…

Well, now I think you owe me an apology for telling me that I'm being insulting. Not that I expect to get one.

Whatever. This thread has been an idiotic waste of time. I do think I'll be saving it for future reference though.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#223

Post by ajross »

temphn wrote: post #212
ajross wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the reactions here fascinating. There's a hugely bimodal distribution here between people who sympathize with the employee (I'm in that set: the guy's out ten thousand dollars, who cares about feelings or "employers being human" at that scale?) and the employer. I'd guess the latter are mostly founders, or people lurking here in the hope of someday being founders. And that makes me sad that so many of you thin…

There are quite a few things in life that are based on you remembering something. Remembering to pay your taxes on time. Remembering to register for the Selective Service upon attaining the age of majority. And remembering to cash in your bonuses and vacation days BEFORE quitting and burning bridges, not after. This guy isn't a current employee. There wasn't a contract signed. That is a gaping hole wide enough to dri…

Taxes and draft registration are legal requirements. So is paying your employees what you owe them. I don't see the asymmetry here. Bonus compensation is still wages (i.e. what line does it go on in your W-2?). You don't have the option to not pay wages to former employees, even ones you don't like.

And your last bit is IMHO horrifying. You clearly think it's OK to dock wages for mistakes on the job. That's both illegal (Wildly so! Don't try this on real employees or you can wreck your company.) and immoral.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#224

Post by nknight »

davidu wrote: post #209
pbiggar wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Your referral bonus is a perk" It seems your argument centers on this point, which is conjecture on your part, at best. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

At my company, it's a perk. And I love paying it out. And my loyalty is to my employees. I would bleed for them. But it's not to my former employees. As I approach 100 employees, many who have been with me for 4+ years, I find my stance to be entirely in their favor.

Your loyalty to your employees should include respect for contracts and the law. This man satisfied the conditions for payment of the bonus before he left the company, he is entitled to the money. That you would not give it to him makes you little better than a thief.

Fortunately, we all now know that OpenDNS and anything else David Ulevitch is involved with in the future is a company to avoid.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#225

Post by salimmadjd »

Miso HR department should have automaically paid the $10k as soon as the criteria was met.

When you work your heart out for a company, you expect the company to look out for you. Loyalty is a two way street, at least this is how I used to manage my people and I would go above and beyound to protect them.

All said, the OP harmed himself as much as he harmed Miso. Although I side with OP on principle, his rash reaction would make me hesitate to ever hire him. It would have been better to have exhausted all other options, before trying to burn your old company.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#226

Post by backspace »

ajross wrote: post #186
temphn wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 This guy Joshua Z.H. Wu does not come out looking good in this blog post. He doesn't realize it, but he just lost a lot more than $10k in lifetime earnings too. Someone willing to nuke something that their friends/coworkers built in this fashion is just not someone you ever want to hire. You find this kind of crap on Google, and you just don't call him back or offer an interview. After all employers are human too,…

I find the reactions here fascinating. There's a hugely bimodal distribution here between people who sympathize with the employee (I'm in that set: the guy's out ten thousand dollars, who cares about feelings or "employers being human" at that scale?) and the employer. I'd guess the latter are mostly founders, or people lurking here in the hope of someday being founders. And that makes me sad that so many of you thin…

Your stance is very black or white - either you're for the employee or you're a founder. I don't think it's quite that clear.

As an employee, I wholeheartedly agree that he should have been paid if he had some written form of agreement (email counts).

As a sensible logical person, I think he should have gotten paid when he was an employee especially since this was an employee perk.

I don't need to be a founder to know that he's not entitled to anything from the company when he's no longer an employee. What's the limit here? Can any past employee in the history of the company suddenly realize he's entitled to some perk, come back and demand it? And if he doesn't get said perk, publicly shame the company?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#227

Post by [deleted] »

calinet6 wrote: post #197
tptacek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand the mentality behind looking for reasons not to pay out bonuses. I see it all the time. It baffles me. When people have credible claims to incentive compensation, just freaking pay them. Almost by definition, we're talking about sums of money with very little marginal impact on the company; those same sums often have unpredictably huge impacts on employees. Forward-looking, employees-only, wha…

> Almost by definition, we're talking about sums of money with very little marginal impact on the company; those same sums often have unpredictably huge impacts on employees. This should be the way every employer sees bonuses. The have huge potential negative and positive impacts, with most of the negative being mitigated by adhering to the rule, "don't be a dick." When in doubt, pay them anyway. The complex positive…

[deleted]

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#228

Post by pbiggar »

davidu wrote: post #209
pbiggar wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Your referral bonus is a perk" It seems your argument centers on this point, which is conjecture on your part, at best. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

At my company, it's a perk. And I love paying it out. And my loyalty is to my employees. I would bleed for them. But it's not to my former employees. As I approach 100 employees, many who have been with me for 4+ years, I find my stance to be entirely in their favor.

I don't think this relates to the discussion at all. Based on the article, it sounds like it was not merely a perk at Miso. If you say you are going to pay it (in writing, etc), you must pay it.

At your company, I'm sure you've done the correct legal things to make sure that it's defined as a perk. But I don't see any evidence that that's how Miso has done it.

BTW, showing no loyalty to your former employees is a black mark in my book. I would urge you to reconsider your attitude.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#229

Post by arbales »

Really disappointed by this post. As a long time friend of Miso and the awesome people there – the people responsible for several awesome open source projects (Padrino, RABL, to name a few) – it makes me really bummed someone would choose to bring an issue up in this way.

I've never heard of a former employee receiving a bonus – referral or otherwise. The idea of a referral bonus is rewarding someone for /growing/ the team, and if you leave before that term is up, or if you leave before you file for the bonus, it's ridiculous to ask for it later – especially when you've already deflated your good will with a company. Moreover, I've not heard of people receiving a referral bonus after forgetting to claim it. I've forgotten to claim one! But I'd never think its anyone else's fault but mine, and my company is backed by an enterprise with a lot of resources.

Hey, I dunno, maybe I'm too busy putting my heart in the work to focus on stuff like this. People like the `jzhwu` whine, foster negative energy, and distract our community from focusing on good work.

Or maybe I'm just secure – financially and mentally. I don't need to squeeze money from former employers or vent my discontent because I'm focused on what I'm doing now, and what I'll do next, and how I'm growing as a designer and a person. I hope this guy discovers a more mature mindset before he does more damage to his career.

Finally, I'm also disappointed by the many people who can't see this for what it is – I assume they're the same crowd that's taking to badmouthing "brogrammers."

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#230

Post by rwhitman »

underwater wrote: post #61

While publicly posting about this probably feels good, it reflects badly on you as well as Miso. * The lack of backups is partly your fault. You were an engineer there after all. * Nuking a production database can happen, but the default assumption is that you are sloppy. * Based on the timeframes one could assume you were fired from Miso. * You have no problem revealing confidential information about your former emp…

Yea the first assumption I made after reading this is that he was fired in relation to nuking the DB.
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