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Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

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Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#121

Post by rbanffy »

gyardley wrote: post #96
rbanffy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech also includes speech you disagree with and the exercise of democracy implies the need to discuss things that are repugnant to you. I do not agree with them, but I defend their (both Dutch pedophiles and RMS) right to state their opinions. Even if I strongly disagree with both.

We completely agree. RMS has the right to make excuses for pedophiles all day every day, if he's so inclined. That said, conference speakers are there at the discretion of the organizers. Not being able to speak is a rights violation; not being able to speak at a conference is not.

I'd assume RMS has more productive ways to spend his time than playing games of logic that induce people into misrepresenting his position ("I'm not sure about the harm" vs. "it's harmless").

I'm glad you didn't say something to the effect of "Not being able to speak is a rights violation; not being able to publish it on the web is not." but you can clearly see it's a small leap from one to the other. After all, the servers, routers and wires always belong to someone.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#122

Post by icebraining »

skrebbel wrote: post #59
raganwald wrote: post #32

Social/Moral question: Is it acceptable to wish Mr. Stallman well in light of allegations that he has advocated for truly awful practices? e.g. Dutch pedophiles have formed a political party to campaign for legalization. I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. http://stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html

There, you're doing it. It is all right for someone to be skeptical about any commonly held view, except when it's about sex with minors. In any discussion about any kind of sex with anyone under 18 whatsoever, if you're not 100% fully completely convincedly against it, then you're a bad person!!1 Why can't we just discuss this? Like we can discuss anything else? Especially in the US, where the norm appears to be tha…

I don't know if RMS said it in this sense, but pedophilia is actually the sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

Attraction to 17 year olds is ephebophilia.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#123

Post by rogerbinns »

Tichy wrote: post #111
rogerbinns wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The health system is not free nor is it government subsidised. It is paid for from taxes, which people pay according to their income. There is no additional charge to then use the system other than paying taxes. (IMHO this is a good thing and it is fair.) In the US it is a complete mess. Half of all healthcare spending is done by the government anyway (Medicare, Medicaid, government employees, army/veterans etc) and…

It's not the same in all European countries. I think in the UK it is like you describe. I was quite shocked, however, when I heard about the typical wait times for things like broken teeth or bones (weeks - that was 18 years ago, though, don't know the current state). In Germany there are specific health insurances you have to pick. However it has become mandatory to have health insurance a couple of years ago, and t…

Are the health insurance plans means tested? ie does a millionaire pay the same as someone who is unemployed? Does the government also contribute some money behind the scenes?

In the UK dentistry is not covered by the National Health Service. (More accurately it can be but the vast majority of dentists opt out.)

As for waiting lists the UK did significantly increase spending in order to reduce them. (The UK also had one of the lowest per capita spending rates in the EU.)

However every health system anywhere has to do some form of rationing. There aren't an infinite number of beds, doctors, machines, or money for that matter. When there is some waiting then whatever is being waited on can achieve 100% utilization although queues can easily get out of hand. How to do the rationing is very tricky. Ultimately some value has to be put on human life. Spending $5000 on a course of treatment instead of $100,000 where the latter has 5% better outcomes needs to be decided.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#124

Post by mikebike »

benihana wrote: post #76

This presents an interesting situation. Is Stallman okay with being hooked up to medical computers even though they may not be running free software? What about the privacy issues involved in being checked into a hospital?

This Stallman quote (transcript from an interview) may be instructive here:

"And the issue doesn't really arise for software that goes in a watch or a microwave oven or an automobile ignition system. Because those are places where you don't download software to install. It's not a real computer, as far as the user is concerned. And so, it doesn't raise these issues enough for them to be ethically important."

Source: http://www.gnu.org/events/rms-nyu-2001-transcript.html

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#125

Post by vacri »

raganwald wrote: post #56
jsprinkles wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True enough. I have less of a problem with him than I do those who consider him infallible. They're already at work in this thread; your comment was gray when I replied to it, and the same fate is befalling those who reply to you.

Let us be generous and consider the possibility that downvotes reflect the opinion that my question is off-topic in a thread about his health rather than agreement or disagreement.

I am downvoting you because I think it's repugnant to wish someone ill health because of what they said, especially if you're pretending you're being neutral/'fair' about it.

That it was said six years ago and you dredge it up in an entirely unrelated topic shows that you are more interested in grinding an axe than discussing the matter at hand.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#126

Post by mindcrime »

icebraining wrote: post #114
mindcrime wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be, because if it's a fundamental right (read: entitlement) then someone else is obligated to provide that care. So, in a hypothetical world where no one chooses to go into the medical profession, we'd have to put guns to people's heads and force them to become doctors, because, after all, medical care is a "fundamental right." There's an obvious paradox in that. Medical care is a "right" in the sense that i…

That argument is perfect in a theoretical world where no one choose to go into the medical profession. Back in real life, that doesn't happen. At most, you have to hire foreign doctors. So yes, it's a right, which like any other right, it's subject to the constraints of reality.

Real world / hypothetical world / thought-experiment aside, the point stands: treating a service as an entitlement entails imposing an obligation on somebody else to provide that service, OR to pay for that service, etc.

If granting one person a "right" means violating someone else's rights (that is, their right to choose how to direct their energy and the fruits of their labor) then it's unjust.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#127

Post by jahewson »

Tichy wrote: post #111
rogerbinns wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The health system is not free nor is it government subsidised. It is paid for from taxes, which people pay according to their income. There is no additional charge to then use the system other than paying taxes. (IMHO this is a good thing and it is fair.) In the US it is a complete mess. Half of all healthcare spending is done by the government anyway (Medicare, Medicaid, government employees, army/veterans etc) and…

It's not the same in all European countries. I think in the UK it is like you describe. I was quite shocked, however, when I heard about the typical wait times for things like broken teeth or bones (weeks - that was 18 years ago, though, don't know the current state). In Germany there are specific health insurances you have to pick. However it has become mandatory to have health insurance a couple of years ago, and t…

No the UK does not make you wait weeks for broken bones. That would never make sense, because the bone would have healed in that time in the incorrect position, and then require expensive surgery to re-set it. It's so obviously nonsense.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#128

Post by icebraining »

mindcrime wrote: post #126
icebraining wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is perfect in a theoretical world where no one choose to go into the medical profession. Back in real life, that doesn't happen. At most, you have to hire foreign doctors. So yes, it's a right, which like any other right, it's subject to the constraints of reality.

Real world / hypothetical world / thought-experiment aside, the point stands: treating a service as an entitlement entails imposing an obligation on somebody else to provide that service, OR to pay for that service, etc. If granting one person a "right" means violating someone else's rights (that is, their right to choose how to direct their energy and the fruits of their labor) then it's unjust.

I don't think it's unjust to make people contribute to society through taxes if they want to live in it. They're free to opt-out from that implicit contract by going to live elsewhere. There's plenty of inhabited places on Earth still.

In any case, rights can and are sometimes eclipsed by others. The idea of natural, absolute rights is just ridiculous.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#129

Post by hkmurakami »

tomrod wrote: post #112
patrickaljord wrote: post #36

He's ok http://www.fsf.org/news/richard-stallman-speech-in-barcelona...

Thanks for letting us know. I really like rms, even if I don't agree with his every position. Here's to hoping he gets into good health soon.

RMS is controversial, extreme, and perhaps even crazy.

But it's scary to imagine a world without the counterpoint that RMS singularly embodies.

In a way, he evokes images of the Dalai Lama: In (metaphorical) exile, regarded as a heretic from many, and revered as a guiding beacon by others.

Re: Richard Stallman Collapses At Barcelona Conference

#130

Post by CamperBob2 »

el_presidente wrote: post #120
mindcrime wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be, because if it's a fundamental right (read: entitlement) then someone else is obligated to provide that care. So, in a hypothetical world where no one chooses to go into the medical profession, we'd have to put guns to people's heads and force them to become doctors, because, after all, medical care is a "fundamental right." There's an obvious paradox in that. Medical care is a "right" in the sense that i…

> It's a service that can be provided and bought on the free market like all other services. Maybe in a hypothetical world where you can find this hypothetical free market. In the real world, health care can be treated as a fundamental right because there are enough doctors available.

Try making those doctors work for free, and see how long there are "enough doctors available."
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