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I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

jzhwu.blogspot.com

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Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#211

Post by jes5199 »

This probably doesn't apply in this case, but if any of you ever have an employer fail to pay your paycheck, you probably can get it resolved without a lawyer. This happened to me once, and I filed a complaint with the Bureau of Labor in my state (Oregon, at the time), and they leaned on the company and got me my last paycheck in less than a month, no cost to me.

(On some level, though, I wish I felt like naming names, because that company is still in business, despite that one quarter where they suddenly stopped paying everyone. But don't worry - they're almost certainly nobody you've ever heard of or done business with)

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#212

Post by temphn »

ajross wrote: post #186
temphn wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 This guy Joshua Z.H. Wu does not come out looking good in this blog post. He doesn't realize it, but he just lost a lot more than $10k in lifetime earnings too. Someone willing to nuke something that their friends/coworkers built in this fashion is just not someone you ever want to hire. You find this kind of crap on Google, and you just don't call him back or offer an interview. After all employers are human too,…

I find the reactions here fascinating. There's a hugely bimodal distribution here between people who sympathize with the employee (I'm in that set: the guy's out ten thousand dollars, who cares about feelings or "employers being human" at that scale?) and the employer. I'd guess the latter are mostly founders, or people lurking here in the hope of someday being founders. And that makes me sad that so many of you thin…

There are quite a few things in life that are based on you remembering something. Remembering to pay your taxes on time. Remembering to register for the Selective Service upon attaining the age of majority. And remembering to cash in your bonuses and vacation days BEFORE quitting and burning bridges, not after.

This guy isn't a current employee. There wasn't a contract signed. That is a gaping hole wide enough to drive a truck through when someone has burned through goodwill like jzhwu has.

> I'm in that set: the guy's out ten thousand dollars, who cares about feelings or "employers being human" at that scale?) and the employer.

Wonderful. And how much do you think his database mishap cost them? Probably a lot more than $10k! And now he's attacking them on the internet. This is someone who is willing to cause hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage for what he's convinced himself he's entitled to, even thought it's a bonus for current employees.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#213

Post by thaumaturgy »

nknight wrote: post #207
thaumaturgy wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it doesn't take a development team two to three days to recover "conceptually lost" data (as according to the post). If you're about to touch the production database in a way that could potentially end catastrophically, and there aren't backups, you really should stop and consider the meaning of life before proceeding. Preferably, you decide that backups are the meaning of life, and even if it's an imperfec…

> It's a rookie mistake. It's a mistake I've seen people with 20 years of experience make. If you haven't done it already, you will eventually. When that day comes, I hope, but don't expect, you'll remember to apologize to this guy. > For a community that seems to pride itself on being the best of the bunch at this stuff How you get from "Hacker News" to "infallible operations engineers" is beyond me. Operations is a…

Of course it's a mistake I've made.

The difference between me and this guy is that I wouldn't've turned around and asked the company for a bunch of money afterward.

And what, exactly, do you think I owe him an apology for?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#214

Post by temphn »

mikeash wrote: post #206
temphn wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There sure is leeway: no signed contract. If he had left on good terms they would have paid the bonus, no question. He didn't and his fuckup cost them a lot more than $10k. At this point, dig in their heels. He says an email is a contract? OK, well, two can play that game. I'd bet that on the bottom of several of those emails there was something about "this email is only addressed to the sender, it may not be reposte…

> He says an email is a contract? OK, well, two can play that game. I'd bet that on the bottom of several of those emails there was something about "this email is only addressed to the sender, it may not be reposted anywhere". Doesn't work that way. The e-mail in question was a back-and-forth conversation in which both parties clearly agreed. Your hypothetical bottom-of-the-e-mail notice is not. It may well not be en…

> Did they promise him a referral bonus? Bam, done, legally binding contract.

Nope, not if they actually have a pre-existing contract signed with other employees that states that the bonus is for current employees only. Then the email conversation is a reference to this pre-existing contract, which excludes Joshua Z.H. Wu in his current state.

And if you were the DBA at the company who was just caused no end of trouble by old jzwhu, you might remember that you signed a contract like that back in October or something.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#215

Post by javajosh »

menocchio wrote: post #200

The comments are really interesting on this story. They break out into a few types: - this is a good/bad way to get your $10K - this is a good/bad way to have a job in the future - this guy who's out $10K is a douche/everyday hero - this is really/really not a bonus, and that is relevant because [ ] - bonuses are forward/backward looking and therefore [ ] I also see some, but not enough, in my opinion, of the followi…

I feel like there should be a meta-HN app that allows people to categorize and collect HN discussions like this (I often find myself doing that myself). But your analysis is spot on, and it bothers me that so much of the conversation seems to miss the central point: the company promised something, and then broke the promise. This is wrong, and should not be encouraged in our society.

(Reminds me of the gay marriage debate, which too-often ignores the simple fact that these "defense of marriage laws" are exactly like Jim Crow. It doesn't matter if you like gays or not, or why you do/don't like them. You can't discriminate, period.)

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#217

Post by drawkbox »

While a situation like this totally sucks the bridge was destroyed like The Bridge on the River Kwai on both sides. Maybe even nuked.

Never heard of Miso (other than the awesome soup) but this is heavily damaging to the brand (for developers). They really should have paid if the new employee was working out, not anything based on the employees performance. Isn't a referral based on getting a good additional asset? Without that referral would you be less a good developer, then pay the bonus.

For the OP, probably should have just moved on as destroying bridges is not a good idea, the world is smaller than we think.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#218

Post by nknight »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #213
nknight wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a rookie mistake. It's a mistake I've seen people with 20 years of experience make. If you haven't done it already, you will eventually. When that day comes, I hope, but don't expect, you'll remember to apologize to this guy. > For a community that seems to pride itself on being the best of the bunch at this stuff How you get from "Hacker News" to "infallible operations engineers" is beyond me. Operations is a…

Of course it's a mistake I've made. The difference between me and this guy is that I wouldn't've turned around and asked the company for a bunch of money afterward. And what, exactly, do you think I owe him an apology for?

Insulting him and telling him he shouldn't ask for money he is clearly owed because of a mistake we've all made. Actually, that second part is an insult, too. So, really, just being incredibly insulting.

That you wouldn't ask for the money is irrelevant. We're not required by any law, moral, or ethic to go through life as a doormat. At this point, money has been stolen from him, just as if they'd taken it from his bank account. He is owed that money, and entitled to ask for it without you attacking him for it.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#219

Post by cconroy »

backspace wrote: post #132
jtchang wrote: post #32

Thank you for posting this. As a community of entrepreneurs and hackers it helps all of us know what happens behind the scenes. Some people may view it as airing their dirty laundry but I see it as a way to keep people honest. The fact that you dropped the production database sucks. However you stayed around and fixed it. I can't really say anything more. My bet is we all handle lots of sensitive data around here. Ou…

I disagree. Handling things professionally and keeping people honest are two different things. There is no "service to the SV community" that this guy is doing by airing dirty laundry. If you've been wronged by your former company, handle it on your own. Shaming the company is not going to help you, the company, or anyone else. What you're effectively suggesting is that your "service" is to warn everyone to stay away…

I argue that if he didn't do it -- it would be a dis-service to the community. I look at it like if it were simple assault involving you and an assailant. Since you were not really injured you decide not to press charges against them.

Let's say the assailant does this again in the future -- hurting somebody marginally. And they do press charges.

To the court this looks like a first offense and they let the assailant off gently.

Now suppose the assailant attacks again and this time causes significant injuries.

Had you originally reported your attack, then it is reasonable that the court would see a second minor attack more seriously and could bring more severe charges, deterring the assailant from subsequent assaults and improving the not only the assailant's life, but also the community (as a whole).

This is a specific instance of the more data a deciding entity has, the better chances their making the right choice.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#220

Post by mikeash »

temphn wrote: post #214
mikeash wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He says an email is a contract? OK, well, two can play that game. I'd bet that on the bottom of several of those emails there was something about "this email is only addressed to the sender, it may not be reposted anywhere". Doesn't work that way. The e-mail in question was a back-and-forth conversation in which both parties clearly agreed. Your hypothetical bottom-of-the-e-mail notice is not. It may well not be en…

> Did they promise him a referral bonus? Bam, done, legally binding contract. Nope, not if they actually have a pre-existing contract signed with other employees that states that the bonus is for current employees only . Then the email conversation is a reference to this pre-existing contract, which excludes Joshua Z.H. Wu in his current state. And if you were the DBA at the company who was just caused no end of trou…

He was a current employee when the payment was due, thus the money was owed then. That he later quit does not somehow erase the debt.
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