Live data from Hacker News

Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

courthousenews.com

321–330 of 1001 posts

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#321
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. AGI is an existential threat, but the real meat of this lawsuit is ensuring that you can't let founders have their cake and eat it like this. what's the point of a non-profit if they can simply pivot to making profit the second they have something of value? the answer is that there is none, besides dishonesty. it's quite sad that the American regulatory system is in such disrepair that we could ev…

The key thing is that the original OAI has no investors and they are not returning profits to people who put in a capital stake. It is totally fine and common for non profits to sell things and reinvest as capital.

the key thing is that now OpenAI has something of value, they're doing everything they possibly can to benefit private individuals and corporations, i.e. Sam Altman and Microsoft, rather than the public good, which is the express purpose of a non-profit

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#322

It seems like the lawsuit revolves around a claim that GPT-4 is "AGI." Seems kind of dubious but, of course, when these questions get to courts who knows what will happen.

Could it lead to probing and discovery?...

Not sure what you mean to imply might happen.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#323
This is going to be an interesting trial.

Elon has a good case that OpenAI has long diverged from his founding principles.

Sam and his friends can side with Microsoft to build a ClosedAI system like Google/Deepmind and Apple.

There is a place for open research. StabilityAI and Mistral seem to be carrying that torch.

I don’t think SamA is the right leader for OpenAI.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#324

There is a lot in here but turning a non-profit into a for-profit definitely should be challenged. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone start as a non-profit, develop your IP, and then switch to 'for-profit' mode once you got something that works? You don't pay income taxes and your investors get write offs.

The replies that say "well the profits go to the non-profit, all's good" miss the reality of these high profit nonprofits: the profits invariably end up in the pockets of management. Most of those are essentially scams, but it doesn't mean that OpenAI isn't just a more subtle scam.

The hype and the credulity of the general public play right into this scam. People will more or less believe anything Sam the Money Gushing Messiah says because the neat demos keep flowing. The question is what's we've lost in all this, which no-one really thinks about.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#325

OpenAi is also being investigated by the SEC. If "Altman hadn’t been consistently candid in his communications with the board" is interpreted as being misleading then that could be interpreted as misleading investors and therefore securities fraud. https://www.wsj.com/tech/sec-investigating-whether-openai-in...

the statements made by the board were likely sufficient to trigger invesigation and the current iteration of the government (2010+) wants to have dirt on anything this big

Still not as big as Halliburton, I feel it’s the opposite the government isn’t detaining these obvious frauders and now they run amock.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#326
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From: Elon Musk To: Sam Altman Subject: AI Lab Agree on all On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Sam Altman wrote: 1. The mission would be to create the first general Al and use ti for individual empowerment ie, the distributed version of the future that seems the safest. More generally, safety should be a first-class requirement. 2. I think we'd ideally start with a group of 7-10 people, and plan to expand from there. We h…

Wait, Peter Thiel is/was heavily involved in YC?

Sauron does have a habit of consistently appearing, and consistently appearing where least expected.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#327
IANAL, but here's my takeaways from reading the complaint:

* There is heavy emphasis on the "Founding Agreement" as the underlying contract. (This appears to be Exhibit 2, which is an email to which Musk replied "Agree on all"). Since I'm not a lawyer, I'm ignorant on the interpretation of a lot of contract law, and there may be finer points in case history that I'm missing, but... where's the consideration? The "Founding Agreement" in general reads to me not as contract but preliminary discussions before the actual contract is signed.

* The actual certificate of incorporation seems more relevant. Also, it's a Delaware corporation, which makes me wonder if Delaware wouldn't be a more appropriate jurisdiction for the dispute than California. Granted, I know Musk now hates Delaware because it's ruled against him, but that's not a reason you get to file suit in the wrong venue!

* I noticed that Musk's citation of the certificate of incorporation has an ellipsis on one of the articles in contention. The elided text is "In furtherance of its purposes, the corporation shall engage in any lawful act of activity for which nonprofit corporations may be organized under the General Corporation Law of Delaware." ... Again, I don't know enough to know the full ramifications of this statement in jurisprudence, but... that seems like a mighty big elastic clause that kind of defeats his case.

* Musk admits to having continued to contribute to OpenAI after he expressed displeasure at some of its activities (paragraph 68). That substantially weakens his case on damages.

* Much hay made of GPT being AGI and AGI being excluded from licenses. No citation of the license in question seems weak. Also, he pleads 'However, OpenAI’s Board “determines when we’ve attained AGI.”'

* Paragraph 98 asserts that OpenAI fired Altman in part due to its breakthrough in realizing AGI. But the conclusion I've seen is that Altman was fired for basically lying to the board.

* Paragraph 105: However, the OpenAI, Inc. Board has never had a fiduciary duty to investors. ... interesting theory, I'm not sure it's true. (Can some lawyers chime in here?)

* There are essentially two underlying causes of action. The first (comprising the first two causes) is that the Founding Agreement is a binding contract between Altman and Musk that OpenAI breached. I'm skeptical that the Founding Agreement actually constitutes a contract, much less one that OpenAI is a party to. The second (comprising the last three causes) is that, as a donor, Musk is entitled to see that his money is used only in certain ways by OpenAI, and OpenAI failed to use that money appropriately. There's no pleading that I can see that Musk specifically attached any strings to his donations, which makes this claim weak, especially given the promissory estoppel implied by paragraph 68.

* The prayers for relief include judicial determination that OpenAI attained AGI. Not sure that is something the court can do, especially given the causes of action presented.

Overall, I don't think this case is all that strong.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#328
post #292

Allowing startups to begin as non-profits for tax benefits, only to 'flip' into profit-seeking ventures is a moral hazard, IMO. It risks damaging public trust in the non-profit sector as a whole. This lawsuit is important

You are right, but regulatory sleight of hand is what passes for capitalism now. Remember Uber and Airbnb dodging regulations by calling themselves "ride-sharing" and "room-sharing" services? Amazon dodging sales taxes because it didn't have a physical retail location? Companies going public via SPAC to dodge the scrutiny of a standard IPO?

This is not new. Companies have always done everything they can legally, and sometimes illegally, to maximize profit. If we ever expect otherwise shame on us.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#329
post #303

There is a lot in here but turning a non-profit into a for-profit definitely should be challenged. Otherwise why wouldn't everyone start as a non-profit, develop your IP, and then switch to 'for-profit' mode once you got something that works? You don't pay income taxes and your investors get write offs.

I'm not at all clear on what a "not for profit" status even does, tax wise. In any jurisdiction. They are still able to actually make a profit (and quite often will, because careful balancing of perfect profit and loss is almost impossible and loss is bad), and I thought those profits were still taxed because otherwise that's too obvious as a tax dodge, it's just that profit isn't their main goal?

Well, you're confused because of your erroneous determination that they're "able to make a profit." They are not. They are able to have positive cash flow but the money can only be reinvested in the nonprofit rather than extracted as profit.
Post reply on HN