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Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

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Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#251
post #65
post #38

imo the most interesting page is page 40 if you don't feel like reading the whole thing. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39562778

I assume you mean Exhibit 2, the email from Sam to Elon.

From: Elon Musk

To: Sam Altman

Subject: AI Lab

Agree on all

On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Sam Altman wrote:

1. The mission would be to create the first general Al and use ti for individual empowerment ie, the distributed version of the future that seems the safest. More generally, safety should be a first-class requirement.

2. I think we'd ideally start with a group of 7-10 people, and plan to expand from there. We have a nice extra building in Mountain View they can have.

3. I think for a governance structure, we should start with 5 people and I'd propose you,[blank] and me. The technology would be owned by the foundation and used "for the good of the world", and in cases where it's not obvious how that should be applied the 5 of us would decide. The researchers would have significant financial upside but ti would be uncorrelated to what they build, which should eliminate some of the conflict (we'll pay them a competitive salary and give them YC equity for the upside). We'd have an ongoing conversation about what work should be open-sourced and what shouldn't. At some point we'd get someone to run the team, but he/she probably shouldn't be on the governance board.

4. Will you be involved somehow in addition to just governance? Ithink that would be really helpful for getting work pointed in the right direction getting the best people to be part of it. Ideally you'd come by and talk to them about progress once a month or whatever. We generically call people involved in some limited way ni YC "part-time partners" (we do that with Peter Thiei for exampie, though at this point he's very involved) but we could call ti whatever you want. Even fi you can't really spend time on ti but can be publicly supportive, that would still probably be really helpful for recruiting.

5. I think the right plan with the regulation letter is to wait for this to get going and then! can just release ti with a message like "now that we are doing this, I've been thinking a lot about what sort of constraints the world needs for safefy." Im' happy to leave you of as a signatory. Ialso suspect that after it's out more peopie will be willing to get behind it.

Sam

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The organization consists of the non-profit OpenAI, Inc. registered in Delaware and its for-profit subsidiary OpenAI Global, LLC. (From Wikipedia)

A non-profit can have a for-profit subsidiary?

Absolutely, Mozilla is another relevant example where the Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit that owns the Mozilla Corporation, which is for-profit. Furthermore many non-profits also buy shares of for-profit corporations, for example the Gates Foundation owns a large chunk of Microsoft.

You can imagine a non-profit buying enough shares of a for-profit company that it can appoint the for-profit company's board of directors, at which point it's a subsidiary.

Heck a non-profit is even allowed and encouraged to make a profit. There are certainly rules about what non-profits can and can't do, but the big rule is that a non-profit can't distribute its profits, ie. pay out a dividend. It must demonstrate that their expenditures support their tax exempt status, but the for-profit subsidiary is more than welcome to pay out dividends or engage in activities that serve private interests.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#253

The defendant list is a bit bewildering. How usual is a corporate structure like this? Which, if any of these, is the nonprofit? OPENAI, INC., a corporation, OPENAI, L.P., a limited partnership, OPENAI, L.L.C., a limited liability company, OPENAI GP, L.L.C., a limited liability company, OPENAI OPCO, LLC, a limited liability company, OPENAI GLOBAL, LLC, a limited liability company, OAI CORPORATION, LLC, a limited liab…

It's incredibly common, there are probably even more but these are the most asset rich companies. If properly structured even something like a local gym is going to be 6-8 entities. I took multiple entire classes dedicated to corporate structure. Multiple entities are needed to maximize liability protection and tax avoidance purposes.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#254

Wouldn't you have to prove damages in a lawsuit like this? What damages does Musk personally suffer if OpenAI has in fact broken their contract?

> Wouldn't you have to prove damages in a lawsuit like this?

Not really; the specific causes of action Musk is relying on do not turn on the existence if actual damages, and of the 10 remedies sought in the prayer for relief, only one of them includes actual damages (but some relief could be granted under it without actual damages.)

Otherwise, its seeking injuctive/equitable relief, declaratory judgement, and disgorgement of profits from unfair business practices, none of which turn on actual damages.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#255

OpenAi is also being investigated by the SEC. If "Altman hadn’t been consistently candid in his communications with the board" is interpreted as being misleading then that could be interpreted as misleading investors and therefore securities fraud. https://www.wsj.com/tech/sec-investigating-whether-openai-in...

Nothing I've read about that whole kerfuffle suggests that "investors" were the main people the ousted board members cared about. Kind of seems like reading back significance not intended into the original text.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#256
post #135

OpenAi is also being investigated by the SEC. If "Altman hadn’t been consistently candid in his communications with the board" is interpreted as being misleading then that could be interpreted as misleading investors and therefore securities fraud. https://www.wsj.com/tech/sec-investigating-whether-openai-in...

Isn’t everything securities fraud though

The only way to truly make a ton of wealth is to break rules that others follow.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#257

I don't even particularly like Musk, but I definitely despise M$ and their comic-book tier villanous shenanigans even more. Here's to hoping M$ gets fucked in this.

The mental gymnastics that some tech bro has to go through to like Musk over Microsoft to the point that they still use the 2001 meme of "M$FT" is hilarious.

I know just about everything I could ever need to know about both companies and I have tons, tons of friends who absolutely love and have been at "M$FT" for 5-20 years.

I don't know a single person who likes working at Tesla or SpaceX and I used to live in Austin.

I'm also a literal linux kernel contributor so I don't have any bone in the game for Windows.

Musk is literally spitting right-wing nazi, anti-trans trash all over twitter and using his new news medium as a right wing mind meld tool while unbanning known anti-semites and racists like Kanye and Trump. Cool guy. I guess you might not care about that when you're a middle-class straight white tech bro on hackernews and might think M$FT is the big bad guy because Bill Gates locked you into Internet Explorer and adware 15 years ago.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#258
post #150

While I have no doubt everything in the complaint is correct, it's hard to see it as Elon being genuinely concerned about open and safe AI vs just having FOMO that he isn't part of it anymore and doesn't get to call the shots. For example his own AI startup is exactly as closed off and unregulated as OpenAI. Why is that not equally concerning?

I don't want to be in the position of defending Elon Musk, but in this case his complaint seems to be that OpenAI claims one thing and does another. If X.ai started out telling everyone it's for-profit and closed off, then it's not hypocritical at all for it to be that. It's something else, sure.

From x.ai's home page:

> At xAI, we want to create AI tools that assist humanity in its quest for understanding and knowledge.

How is it doing that by being a closed, for-profit enterprise?

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, OpenAI basically grafted a for-profit entity onto the non-profit to bypass their entire mission. They’re now extremely closed AI, and are valued at $80+ billion. If I donated millions to them, I’d be furious.

Nobody promised open sourced AI, despite the name. Exhibit B, page 40, Altman to Musk email: "We'd have an ongoing conversation about what work should be open-sourced and what shouldn't."

Elon isnt asking for them to be open source.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#260

Wouldn't you have to prove damages in a lawsuit like this? What damages does Musk personally suffer if OpenAI has in fact broken their contract?

I don't know how comparable it would be, but I imagine if I donated $44 million to a university under the agreement that they would use the money in a particular way (e.g. to build a specific building or to fund a specific program) and then the university used the money in some other way, I feel I ought to have some standing to sue them. Of course, this all depends on the investment details specified in a contract an…

Yeah - Had you donated the funds as "restricted funding" in the nonprofit parlance, they would have a legal requirement to use the funds as you had designated. It seems that Musk contributed general non-restricted funding so the nonprofit can more or less do what they want with the money.. Not saying there's no case here, but if he really wanted them to do something specific, there's a path for that to happen and that he didn't take that path is definitely going to hurt his case.
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