I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#171

Post by TheSmoke » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:52 PM UTC

jasontan wrote: post #10

While this is unfortunate and it sounds like you deserve better (I'd like to hear the other side of the story first), I would discourage against taking this public. This is an issue between you and the founders, and no one else. "Warning" your former Miso coworkers should happen privately -- this post brings them the wrong kind of attention, but they did nothing to deserve it. Future employers who read this post will…

future employers who would want to screw him will think twice about hiring him.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#172

Post by debacle » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:53 PM UTC

jeremymcanally wrote: post #18

stephencanon wrote: post #6

The correct response here isn't to air your grievances in public, it's to talk to a lawyer.

For $10,000? Lawyers aren't cheap and, honestly, typically aren't worth it for amounts under $25k, especially if the other side can lawyer up faster and better than you can. Take it to small claims and get as much as you can.

If the other side lawyers up faster and better they're also paying more, and with a $100 letter it might be easy to convince them that lawyers typically aren't worth it for amounts under $25k.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#173

Post by rhizome » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:53 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #144

rhizome wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How big of a risk, do you think? The point I'm driving at is that this is (obviously) seen to be taboo behavior, but I'm not sure that anybody would find this and visit repercussions upon the author. Additionally, a lot of the taboo might be based on "word getting around." Well, how many times have you heard of management badmouthing people to other companies? Ever? I'm not sure the blacklist implied in some of these…

It's impossible to know how big the risk may be. Maybe he'll impress the hell out of whoever Googles him in the future. Maybe they'll run screaming. My instinct based on incomplete understanding of the information is that the risk/reward was too high for my comfort level. In any case, I wish the author the best of luck in getting his bonus and in getting better about backups :)

If it's impossible to know how big the risk may be, how can you say that there's any risk?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#174

Post by rada » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:54 PM UTC

lawrence wrote: post #118

danilocampos wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may want to consider putting the $10K towards a good cause (if Miso eventually steps up), to show it was never about the money. Why in god's name shouldn't it be about the money? He delivered incredible value by finding the company some talent in a talent-scarce environment. $10k seems like a pittance – but definitely one he earned.

Well, I think if it were about the money he would have lawyered up, and not gone public. My understanding of his post was that the decision to go public meant he cared most about warning others.

Who made the rule that it has to be about one thing, and one thing only? He can care about the public good and his own good all the same time. I know I do.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#175

Post by jusben1369 » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:55 PM UTC

Here's what surprises me: Miso - Hey, is $10K really worth having a disgruntled ex employee out on the streets bad mouthing us in the community (even if you assume he/she doesn't go public with a post you know the story makes it around to 50 people in his circle) Ex-Employee: Hey is flaming Miso for this really worth $10K to me when it could cost me a future opportunity to work someplace where the salary is 6 or 7 figures over a few years + equity upside?

Between the two of these sense usually prevails. However, this one appears to have made it past both barriers and out into the public.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#176

Post by chasing » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #130

"Name and shame" is a thorny issue. Opponents are right in the same way you shouldn't badmouth former employers in job interviewers. It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on. When companies screw you out of money, you should name and shame them (IMHO). Trust me, over the years I've probably lost out on all told $50,000 or more that people never paid. In some cases it…

It's not a bonus. It's payment for services rendered. They offered $10k for a service. He performed the service.

Say I take a cab home from the airport. The money I give the cabbie upon arrival isn't a bonus -- it's payment for services rendered. (The tip is the bonus.)

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#177

Post by dkrich » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:58 PM UTC

There's a reason he's a CTO and not an attorney. As is probably been mentioned a million times, it sounds like you absolutely had a contract. It need not be written. If you have emails or some documentation implying a contract between you and Miso, that's every bit as good (in some cases better because it is specific to your case).

If it were me I'd get an attorney to take it up on my behalf. If you have a friend who is an attorney who can do it, even better. File a small claims suit. Make them show up or hire an attorney. Settle out of court for five or six grand or go to court and take your chances. Sounds to me like you have a very good case complete with emails to show consideration. Split the money with your friend (or pay the attorney). Move on satisfied that you made them pay up.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#178

Post by eli » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:58 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #112

eli wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think very few startups use recruiters -- who has that much extra cash laying around?

I've worked at three startups in the valley since 1999, and all three used recruiters. Typically they have 1-3 internal recruiters, and do try to avoid external staffing agencies, but, in tight employment conditions (right now) - hiring managers tend to working with staffing agencies to get some acceleration in hiring. One of the tasks of HR, in fact, is in the growth phase from 30 to 300 employees, is to run interfe…

Well, shows how much I know. I guess the fact that most recruiters I've interacted with have been terrible might be coloring my opinion of their value. How does one go about finding a good recruiter?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#179

Post by patio11 » Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:01 PM UTC

jroes wrote: post #166

patio11 wrote: post #113

First step after an employer says no to paying you money owed should ALWAYS be a letter on dead tree saying exactly what your email said, signed by your lawyer. You'll come out $9,700 ahead because folks understand that fobbing off lawyers has consequences. Your lawyer would have printed out email #2 ("You nuked a DB. Screw you."), called it a pretext to deny you rightfully earned wages , and told the company to have…

This is great advice. I just wanted to make the typical legal fees clear to keep things realistic. I'm not sure if it's the same with this type of case, but for personal injury claims, the typical lawyer contract entitles the attorney to 1/3 of the dollars won plus fees. Of course, 2/3 of 10k is still > 0.

Lawyers typically work personal injury on a contingency basis because they have a high percentage win ratio and because, all things being equal, the person injured is likely to be poor. There may well be lawyers who take employment law cases on a contingency basis, but there will also be ones who simply hire out their services in formal letterwriting on an hourly basis, broken down into six minute increments. That is, overwhelmingly, the most common billing arrangement in the profession. You might even find a lawyer willing to do that and defer the payment until after the check had been received, but I do not anticipate the legal bill here being a prohibitive amount of money for an American professional.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#180

Post by temphn » Thu, May 10, 2012, 10:01 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #130

"Name and shame" is a thorny issue. Opponents are right in the same way you shouldn't badmouth former employers in job interviewers. It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on. When companies screw you out of money, you should name and shame them (IMHO). Trust me, over the years I've probably lost out on all told $50,000 or more that people never paid. In some cases it…

+1

This guy Joshua Z.H. Wu does not come out looking good in this blog post. He doesn't realize it, but he just lost a lot more than $10k in lifetime earnings too. Someone willing to nuke something that their friends/coworkers built in this fashion is just not someone you ever want to hire. You find this kind of crap on Google, and you just don't call him back or offer an interview.

After all employers are human too, and when you delete the production db, make everyone pick up your mess, quit, and then have the stones to ask for your long-forgotten referral bonus for current employees in a chipper tone when you are already at another company...yeah, he's kind of a douche.

I'm sure he can be legalistic about it, and I'm sure there are no end of lawyers out there willing to huff and puff about the evil employer but...douche.