Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society • Hacker News Board

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#81

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:30 PM UTC

gms wrote: post #79

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh bullshit. If Organization A doesn't pay its workers, Organization B will notice that Organization A has gotten away with it. Then, Organization B will stop paying their workers, since after all, each employer who stops paying increases the degree of monopsony buying labor for zero.

There is an assumption underlying my premise: that organisations are in competition with one another. I think that's a fair assumption to make. I would expect that competing organisations would do anything legal to give them a leg up over the competition, including the hiring of workers they consider productive away from the competition. It's too risky otherwise; all it takes is for some other organisation to offer w…

Yes, I disagree. Again: employers know that each employer who stops paying any wages reinforces the non-paying equilibrium by increasing the price-point-zero oligopsony.

Market dynamics work as you described when buyers are required to actually pay something.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#82

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:32 PM UTC

jreeve wrote: post #68

j_baker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?

Well, what about the folks who also couldn't afford to go to the school that the guy was going to? I mean, ultimately, the big obvious problem of capitalism is that the upkeep of labor is pushed onto the laborer... almost to the point where (to a very small extent) it could be possible that forcing labor to pay for its upkeep while exploiting it for profit is a defining characteristic of capitalism. While I find it t…

Yes, an internship is a job. You work for an employer. That makes it a job. Pay the hell up.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#83

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

gms wrote: post #72

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a job isn't productive enough to provide for the upkeep of the worker (ie: to pay a living wage), why should it exist? At that point, the worker's slow-motion death (or the welfare money society pays to prevent that) are just subsidizing a ridiculously unproductive employer.

By your logic no part-time hourly-wage work should ever exist.

Oh, if the employer can provide a liveable income in 20 hours/week, I've got no problem with that!

But yes, it simply shouldn't exist. Well, maybe we can allow an exemption based on age or legal dependency status for teenage kids earning extra money at a movie theater. In that case, though, the parents are basically subsidizing the movie theater.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#84

Post by mindcrime » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:39 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #18

mindcrime wrote: post #13

One premise of this article is faulty. They presume that you can only accept an unpaid internship if you're from a wealthy / privileged family or whatever. But that's not true. There's no particular reason you couldn't, say, work an unpaid internship 8 hours during the day, and work a second job at night, busing tables, washing dishes, working as a barista at Starbucks, or whatever. Plenty of people already work 2 jo…

Carrying on two jobs is technically possible but it would still be remarkably difficult and I think unrealistic to do this. The argument that the system overly benefits the wealthy is still valid.

Carrying on two jobs is technically possible but it would still be remarkably difficult and I think unrealistic to do this.

Difficult? Yes. Unrealistic? I don't think so, based on my own experiences and those of people I've known. You'd be surprised what people can do when they're sufficiently motivated.

Hell, I had a friend in college who would walk / hitchhike the 12-14 miles or so from his home to school, and back, while simultaneously working a graveyard shift job. I also worked the same graveyard shift job and while slogging my way through college. Don't underestimate people who are truly unhappy with their circumstances and who are really committed to changing them.

The argument that the system overly benefits the wealthy is still valid.

OK, life is easier if you "come from money." I don't think this is any newsbreak, nor is the internship situation particularly special in this regard.

Try this as a thought experiment though... some kid who comes from a poor family, who has little or no wealth, who is trying to bootstrap / self-fund a startup. If he/she had the opportunity to engage some help from an unpaid intern, and the combination results in a company that ultimately raises the standard of living for the entrepreneur, and creates more paying jobs in the future (possibly including the intern in question), then isn't that a Good Thing?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#85

Post by jreeve » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:49 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #78

jreeve wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what about the folks who also couldn't afford to go to the school that the guy was going to? I mean, ultimately, the big obvious problem of capitalism is that the upkeep of labor is pushed onto the laborer... almost to the point where (to a very small extent) it could be possible that forcing labor to pay for its upkeep while exploiting it for profit is a defining characteristic of capitalism. While I find it t…

Sorry, what are you saying? Capitalism is an imperfect system, therefore we should stop trying to make it better? I mean, of course capitalism has systemic problems. And many of those are the result of an education system that rewards those who are already well off. I think banning unpaid internships would go a long way towards making capitalism a better system.

Fair enough.

But I am not saying that we shouldn't make it better (though if it would ceases to function in favor of some yet unnamed better thing, I will be much happier than if it were merely "better").

However, once you want to talk about freedom in the labor market, it should be pretty clear that there is none at all: what about me? Through no fault of my own, I can't afford to commute into a city, so I occasionally lose work and make less than I otherwise would.

But since we really can't do much about these systematic issues on an individual level, I can respect your stance towards banning unpaid internships outright: seems like an okay idea to me.

I am not saying that we should make reforms.

I am saying that it's possible to modify how capitalism operates by means other than banning practices, that is, by improving what people are doing with unpaid internships by 1) not treating them as labor in any sense and 2) not making their exchange about money.

Or if you prefer, why internships at all: why not abolish the whole concept of underpaid, low skilled labor and -only- hire "employees" at a real rate while working on helping them gain newer and better skill sets?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#86

Post by gms » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:51 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #83

gms wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your logic no part-time hourly-wage work should ever exist.

Oh, if the employer can provide a liveable income in 20 hours/week, I've got no problem with that! But yes, it simply shouldn't exist. Well, maybe we can allow an exemption based on age or legal dependency status for teenage kids earning extra money at a movie theater. In that case, though, the parents are basically subsidizing the movie theater.

What if I have a spare 8 hours a week (say, Saturdays), and want to use them every week to earn some extra cash (at say $12 an hour, coming out to an extra $96 a week). Should I be prevented from doing this?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#87

Post by fierarul » Thu, May 10, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

This is odd: just today I've posted our internship projects and they are all for paid positions.

And actually nowadays all students are forced by the University to have a short internship and it doesn't have to include a wage!

But I've decided to pay the students anyhow for 2 simple reasons:

* I want good students to apply. We are a small company.

* I want students to care more about the internship than just showing up and do the minimum.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#88

Post by PKop » Thu, May 10, 2012, 7:08 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #82

jreeve wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what about the folks who also couldn't afford to go to the school that the guy was going to? I mean, ultimately, the big obvious problem of capitalism is that the upkeep of labor is pushed onto the laborer... almost to the point where (to a very small extent) it could be possible that forcing labor to pay for its upkeep while exploiting it for profit is a defining characteristic of capitalism. While I find it t…

Yes, an internship is a job. You work for an employer. That makes it a job. Pay the hell up.

How is arguing that "free" is too low any different than arguing "X" dollars is too low and should be more? If the marginal product of the interns labor is more than what is offered, then competing companies will bid up the wage rate until it equals the MPL. How is this a special case that is immune to the effects of supply/demand?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#89

Post by epsil » Thu, May 10, 2012, 7:08 PM UTC

gms wrote: post #20

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be wor…

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. ... If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore.

That depends upon the demand curve for internship labor. If the demand is perfectly elastic, no internships will be offered at a higher wage; if the demand is somewhat elastic, less internships will be offered; and if the demand is inelastic, the number of offered internships will be unchanged.

What we are observing is a single data point: the intersection between the supply and demand curves. We cannot extrapolate the full curves from it. That organizations aren't paying for internships under present circumstances, doesn't mean that they wouldn't pay for internships under different circumstances. All it means is that the organizations have the upper hand in the transaction.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#90

Post by posabsolute » Thu, May 10, 2012, 7:11 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #51

phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

Internships aren't for making money, they're for gaining experience. Getting paid for them is nice, but the experience is the important part. For some companies having to pay interns would just mean they wouldn't offer internships at all. The reason interns are paid less (or not at all) is that there are lower expectations for interns and other staff usually has to take time to mentor them or check their work. Maybe…

I agree, it simpler for a dev to see inequality here, my friend has his company, they don't pay internship because generally the interns is too junior to work on anything alone, and sometimes even cost him money taking times from other dev explaining stuff.

Not only that, the intern will have to learn a lot of things he did not learn at school because it's not the market reality.

If they did a good job they generally get a nice gift (like an ipad) and sometimes a job.

Granted we have no Harvard around, i guess it could be different but, I don't think unpaid intern are dramatic at all, rarely an intern can do as well a job that even a 2 years experienced guy does.