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'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

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Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#321

Post by dr_dshiv »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #121

Reminds me of Titius–Bode law[1], where simple equation correctly gave orbits of all the known planets, while predicting one more in asteroid belt and correct distance to Uranus. Only was considered disproven when Neptune didn't work. I would not trust these relations even existing (other than by pure chance). Even less I'd trust any intelligent design behind it [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius%E2%80%93Bode_l…

I thought that, absent perturbation, accretion rings and planets would form at mathematical intervals due to orbital resonance effects. It’s just a very low energy state. Similar to how vibrational modes tend to be integer harmonics (actual overtone patterns are not perfect integer harmonics due to nonlinearities).

If I use classical language, this is the claim that there are harmonies in math itself that manifest as harmonies in the physical cosmos [1]. Arguably, it’s more weird that we don’t see more physical harmonies — it seems this is due to the incredible complexity of the nonlinear interactions.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240587262...

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#322

Post by yreg »

onion2k wrote: post #317
lisper wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how temperature is measured for an object this far away. From the black body radiation spectrum. [UPDATE] It turns out that the temperature of TrEs-2b is not directly measured, but extrapolated from other measurements (at least according to Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrES-2b#Temperature ). > Instead of the energy being absorbed as heat by the planet, it'd instead be stored in some other form…

Theoretically a civilization that could capture 100% of the energy from it's star would be able to use however much of that energy it wanted to heat or cool the planet. They could make the conditions perfect for them. There could be a reason why they'd want the surface to be extremely hot.

This might be just the powerplant and they could be living somewhere else. A gas giant seems improbable as an advanced civ homeworld anyway.

There are no other discovered planets in the system, but perhaps there are some, or at least moons.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#323

Post by thaumasiotes »

yreg wrote: post #318
thaumasiotes wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throw a d6 seven times and the pigeonhole principle requires that a configuration will come up twice. The example is weakening your argument; it's still true that if you throw a d6 five times, you expect a configuration to come up twice. A better example wouldn't involve a probability that can achieve 1; maybe ask about the probability of rolling a 3, or of rolling another 3 given you've already observed one 3. None…

Throw a d6 six times and you probably won't see each value exactly once.

Yes, I mentioned that in my comment, unless you believe that after seeing five rolls including a duplicate, adding a sixth might bring the total to six rolls with no duplicates.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#324

Post by hermitcrab »

barkingcat wrote: post #245
hermitcrab wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not at all clear to me why the harmonics makes it any more worth searching for aliens than any other solar system. a) Why would aliens expend the enormous energy required to engineer this? b) Isn't it vastly more likely to occur naturally as some sort of resonance effect?

"Why would aliens expend the enormous energy required to engineer this" Is a very similar answer to why humans would make microprocessors out of logic gates. I'm in school for digital design at the moment, and stuff like oscillators and frequency dividers are at the very base/root of almost all electronic circuits. One guess could be that alignments of planets in specific ways could be used to generate specific impul…

I can understand that it could be done as some sort of cosmic scale performance art. But I find it hard to understand that it would have any practical use. But, there again, aliens are likely to have very different thought processes.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#325

Post by magneticnorth »

stevev wrote: post #314
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mentioned in the preceding article and the two papers that are linked. In spite of the title no one is wondering if aliens moved planets around to park them in special orbits. It's infinitely more likely the resonances developed naturally. Also, none of the planets are in the habitable zone, so it's unlikely there's life on them. Which is a shame, because if the star was much dimmer and they were in the habitabl…

Habitable zone is made up concept. Life forms can exist in many conditions.

I am very interested to learn the evidence you have that life can develop outside a star’s habitable zone.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#326

Post by hermitcrab »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #288
a_gnostic wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…mostly big piles of rocks… nothing too special…

So these ancient granite constructions exhibit tool markings of computer-aided design precision, laser cutting, and power drilling. These enormous granite obselisks weigh more than even modern cranes can lift. But they were allegedly "hand-chiseled" and lifted from quarries by a dozen men with ropes. Yet no-one with actual modern computers and lasers and drills and cranes has been able to replicate any of it. Oh and…

>So these ancient granite constructions exhibit tool markings of computer-aided design precision, laser cutting, and power drilling.

Ok, I'll bite. Says who?

From the photos I have seen, the blocks look hand cut, not laser cut. I understand the blocks were cut with copper chisels and that archeologists found copper chisels in the quarries.

It is entirely believable that hundreds of men using ramps, ropes, grease and rollers could move these large blocks.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#327

Post by ianai »

magneticnorth wrote: post #325
stevev wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Habitable zone is made up concept. Life forms can exist in many conditions.

I am very interested to learn the evidence you have that life can develop outside a star’s habitable zone.

I’m getting the sense they can be too close to form life, but can form further out with the right planetary characteristics. How often favorable atmospheres form would be interesting.

Taken another way: Venus’ atmosphere would get more “tame” further out. That might make it more conducive to life. But would its atmosphere still form at those distances? (Clearly it’s not impossible.)

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#328

Post by ianai »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #121

Reminds me of Titius–Bode law[1], where simple equation correctly gave orbits of all the known planets, while predicting one more in asteroid belt and correct distance to Uranus. Only was considered disproven when Neptune didn't work. I would not trust these relations even existing (other than by pure chance). Even less I'd trust any intelligent design behind it [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius%E2%80%93Bode_l…

That law reads like a good starting point for the lifetime evolution of matter around a star, but too simple to be expected to capture the full range of possibilities. Probably shouldn’t be used to refute hypotheses.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#329

Post by Kichererbsen »

maweki wrote: post #263
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what priors you put on things like planetary size and orbital periods. If your prior is uniform, then it is just as likely for this configuration to exist as any other and because the probability mass is uniformly distributed (e.g. every outcome is equally likely) then there's probably only one of it.

Every value being equally likely does not mean we expect every value to appear only once. Throw a d6 seven times and we expect a configuration to come up twice, even though the distribution is uniform.

why you guys all rolling d6? d20 is the queen of dice!

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#330

Post by Aardwolf »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #273
not2b wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could be a natural phenomenon. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_resonance

It's mentioned in the preceding article and the two papers that are linked. In spite of the title no one is wondering if aliens moved planets around to park them in special orbits. It's infinitely more likely the resonances developed naturally. Also, none of the planets are in the habitable zone, so it's unlikely there's life on them. Which is a shame, because if the star was much dimmer and they were in the habitabl…

The article seemed to imply such a system may be interesting as a "communication relay" for extraterrestrial civilizations. No matter what the system may attract anyone's attention
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