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Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

theatlantic.com

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Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#31

Post by eli_gottlieb »

gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one.

Unpaid internships undermine the entire legal and moral principle that workers are supposed to be paid. There's a reason we have minimum-wage laws, and of course, anti-slavery laws.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#32

Post by evoxed »

gms wrote: post #20

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be wor…

I can't speak directly about the tech industry, but this is absolutely not the case in architecture and engineering. Your tasks may not be the most critical part of any project, but they are incredibly time intensive and would otherwise cost the firm a huge chunk of money. CAD monkeys are the quickest example, although physical model builders get quite a share of gruntwork as well. Outsourcing that work costs tens of thousands per project, but a 2nd year masters student will do it for free because it's the only way to get their IDP hours to sit for the licensing exam.

There have been many discussions about this between architects and these days there are just some firms that have a reputation for churning through interns for free labor... Banning them is a tense subject for many, but many have taken the stance that after some period of months/years such practices are unethical. I can't recall the AIA's official stance.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#33

Post by eli_gottlieb »

gms wrote: post #20

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be wor…

By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#34

Post by prostoalex »

phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

This brings up the question of a value derived from intern's presence. At my first employer out of college non-technical departments hired (unpaid) interns willy-nilly, figuring half of them would turn out to be bozos competent only to run a copy machine or fetch coffee for the team.

Since engineering department paid their interns, they always had to work out some project plans and business necessity in order to have the position(s) open for the summer. So kinda obvious that many students did not get a chance to intern, as with paid internships the company was way more frugal and selective.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#35

Post by drumdance »

gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

It's not the idea that offends, it's the practicality. I had to turn down an unpaid internship in my early twenties because I couldn't make ends meet otherwise. I ended up going into a completely different field. I'm happy with my current profession, but I occasionally wonder "what if..."

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#36

Post by bkmartin »

jreeve wrote: post #19
phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good wa…

I think that one of the key points here is that he did get "something". He got course credit. The college felt that the work he was doing in industry was worth "something" towards his education (which it most certainly was). So he paid for course credit, did the "classwork" (internship), and got the credit he earned. If he had not gotten any course credit and was simply doing it for the experience, I'm not liking that situation. Surely, almost ANYTHING, people do for your business is worth minimum wage.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#37

Post by drumdance »

res0nat0r wrote: post #26
Tiktaalik wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying on two jobs is technically possible but it would still be remarkably difficult and I think unrealistic to do this. The argument that the system overly benefits the wealthy is still valid.

Realistically many single parents work two or even more jobs to make ends meet.

That's because the alternative is homelessness. The alternative to an unpaid internship is taking a job you don't like. Not nearly as powerful a motivator.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#38

Post by phillmv »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #29
phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

Narrative? Any company is going to take free labor if they can get away with it. The problem here is the clear contravention of labor laws.

Yes. But why is this a new situation? What's changed about the economy if this is only now becoming standard practice?

Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom?

Do we offer unpaid internships because there are just so many people willing to work for free, or do we offer unpaid internships because there are people willing to work for free and everyone else is also doing it?

We're only one or two steps away from reverse paid internships, or looking at them as investments. "Seeking executive assistant. Minimum MBA or equivalent post-graduate degree. First one to pony up $20k gets it".

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#39

Post by gm »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #31
gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. Unpaid internships undermine the entire legal and moral principle that workers are supposed to be paid. There's a reason we have minimum-wage laws, and of course, anti- slavery laws.

Bullshit.

A requirement of slavery is to both be forced to work and not have a choice of where you work (google it).

And don't get me started on moral principles. Moral principles are each person's own. Certainly you do not want to be held to _my_ moral principles, right? Why should anyone else be held to someone else's? If the moral principles are strong enough turn them into law.

The only question that is genuine is the law. So if the law allows unpaid internships, why whine about it?

For the record, I would not be where I am if I had not had a chance to do for free what I now do for a living. But that's just my experience.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#40

Post by wvenable »

paulgb wrote: post #11

I don't buy the argument that unpaid internships are immoral because they disadvantage the underprivileged. Higher education systematically disadvantages the underprivileged, especially at US tuition rates. Does that make going to Harvard unethical? There is clearly a supply/demand mismatch in some industries, and unpaid internships are a symptom, not the cause. I get defensive when the issue of unpaid internships co…

Honestly comparing an unpaid internship in High School is no where near the same as requiring 20-somethings in college and university to work for free. I also did the unpaid internship thing in high school (which turned in a paid job) and I did a fully paid internships in University. I could not afford to work for free as an 18 year old on my own.

It's amazing that in a country with a minimum wage it's still possible to hire people for a job for free.

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