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Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

theatlantic.com

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Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#21

Post by Wilya »

fidrelity wrote: post #3

is this really an issue in the tech industry? I'm studying in austria, absolved an internship in germany, got paid quite well and so did all my fellow students (internships all over europe, US, australia).

I guess it's more a question of local tradition than a question of which industry you're in. As far as I can gather, in Sweden unpaid internship are the norm. In France, the situation is a bit more mixed. Some people pay well, others pay the strict legal minimum (0 or 400€, depending on the total duration).

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#22

Post by Kuiper »

paulgb wrote: post #16
davedx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope your last sentence is meant to suggest technical interns should be paid above minimum wage, rather than that only non-techs should be paid fairly?

I think that goes without saying; technical interns are in high enough demand that if you're not paying minimum wage they have options elsewhere.

Where I am (midwest USA) technical interns are typically paid at least twice minimum wage; offer anything less than 175% minimum wage and engineering students will dismiss you entirely.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#23

Post by evoxed »

datr wrote: post #2

Are internships with The Atlantic paid or unpaid? Edit: According to this article: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/04/06/atlantic-publisher-ta... all atlantic interns are paid.

I have a friend who interned with them. They also give actual offers to distinguished candidates, which though it should be relatively standard is often not the case.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#24

Post by j_baker »

phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

I think it's much simpler than that. I think it's just that businesses like having free labor. It's much cheaper than paying people, isn't it?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#25

Post by gm »

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one.

What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else.

Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#26

Post by res0nat0r »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #18
mindcrime wrote: post #13

One premise of this article is faulty. They presume that you can only accept an unpaid internship if you're from a wealthy / privileged family or whatever. But that's not true. There's no particular reason you couldn't, say, work an unpaid internship 8 hours during the day, and work a second job at night, busing tables, washing dishes, working as a barista at Starbucks, or whatever. Plenty of people already work 2 jo…

Carrying on two jobs is technically possible but it would still be remarkably difficult and I think unrealistic to do this. The argument that the system overly benefits the wealthy is still valid.

Realistically many single parents work two or even more jobs to make ends meet.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#27

Post by j_baker »

gms wrote: post #20

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be wor…

You mean a sizable subset of workers have decided they're worth their time. I think it's worth bringing up Maslowe's hierarchy of needs. If you can't afford to eat or pay rent, the experience you're getting is among the least of your concerns. If your food and rent situation is taken care of beforehand (and it's almost always done so by someone else), then you get to base your decision on whether or not the time is worth the experience.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#28

Post by j_baker »

jreeve wrote: post #19
phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good wa…

Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations.

But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#29

Post by eli_gottlieb »

phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

Narrative? Any company is going to take free labor if they can get away with it. The problem here is the clear contravention of labor laws.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#30

Post by j_baker »

paulgb wrote: post #11

I don't buy the argument that unpaid internships are immoral because they disadvantage the underprivileged. Higher education systematically disadvantages the underprivileged, especially at US tuition rates. Does that make going to Harvard unethical? There is clearly a supply/demand mismatch in some industries, and unpaid internships are a symptom, not the cause. I get defensive when the issue of unpaid internships co…

I'd expect that Harvard has at least some scholarships/grants for underprivileged students. Unpaid internships offer no such niceties.
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