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'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

space.com

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Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#191

Post by lisper »

bloggie wrote: post #183
lisper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My theory is that its darkness is down to the fact that the civilisation there has figured out a way to harness solar energy to near 100% capacity, along the lines of a Dyson sphere [1]. Very unlikely, in light of the fact that "the air of this planet is as hot as lava".

Isn’t that the expected outcome when energy production eventually outpaces the planet’s ability to dissipate energy into space?

No. The temperature of the atmosphere has nothing to do with whether or not aliens are harvesting the energy. At equilibrium, all of the incoming energy has to get radiated back out into space eventually whether there are aliens harvesting that energy or not.

The problem with an atmosphere hotter than lava is that very few materials are solid at those temperatures, and it's hard to imagine how a civilization could build an energy harvester without solid materials.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#192

Post by exe34 »

swores wrote: post #89
tromp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As detailed in the companion article [1], for every 54 orbits of planet 1, planets 2..6 orbit 36, 24, 16, 12, and 8 times respectively, giving successive ratios of 2/3, 2/3, 2/3, 3/4 and 3/4. After those 54 planet 1 orbits, all planets are in the same relative position. [1] https://www.space.com/six-sub-neptunes-found-100-light-years...

> After those 54 planet 1 orbits, all planets are in the same position. Could you please explain what you mean by this, as to my layman's ears that sounds like either a confusingly-worded sentence, or an impossibility (multiple planets in the same location at the same time). Do they just all pass through one specific same location once per orbit but at different times? Or something else I'm not imagining?

Same angular offset, i.e they line up.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#193

Post by awesomeideas »

bloggie wrote: post #183
lisper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My theory is that its darkness is down to the fact that the civilisation there has figured out a way to harness solar energy to near 100% capacity, along the lines of a Dyson sphere [1]. Very unlikely, in light of the fact that "the air of this planet is as hot as lava".

Isn’t that the expected outcome when energy production eventually outpaces the planet’s ability to dissipate energy into space?

Well, it's not going to outpace it, exactly. Unless the temperature is actually increasing (or decreasing), the energy in matches the energy radiated away, less the non-heat work.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#194

Post by Ensorceled »

redder23 wrote: post #96
Ensorceled wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why "alien" is clickbait. If the system was artificially created, do you think it is more likely that humans are doing it?

Neither humans nor aliens created it, obviously.

I mean, that's literally what they are investigating. It's an article about the search for intelligent life, if you think that's nonsense, that's fine but it doesn't make it "clickbait".

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#195

Post by usefulcat »

empath-nirvana wrote: post #186
onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #101

I think the authors do not understand how planetary resonances work and how precise (or imprecise) the orbits need to be for the resonance to hold. Resonances are very common. We have lots of resonances in our Solar system in all different places between bodies. For the resonance to be stable, two bodies do not need to have mathematically precise orbits in relation to each other. There is quite a wide margin for erro…

The reason they're _actually_ looking at that system is that we're looking directly down on it so we can see the orbits of all the planets at once. It has nothing to do with thinking the orbits are unnatural.

Are you sure? TFA states "HD 110067 is viewed edge on from Earth", which doesn't sound like what you're describing. Of course they could have made a mistake; I don't know either way.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#196

Post by wongarsu »

exe34 wrote: post #190
wongarsu wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they don't. They might live on a rocky planet further out and just use TrES-2b as a place to run their solar farm because it's extremely close to their star and (due to being uninhabited) didn't have any NIMBYs opposing large-scale construction projects. Note how far out from the planet's orbit NASA expects the habitable zone. We aren't very good yet at finding planets that aren't huge or nearly hugging their s…

To be fair, if your solar farm can be in orbit around a planet that's not your legal address for tax purposes, it can just orbit the star?

Maybe building on the planet had some advantages during construction, like easier delivery or being able to use local resources. Or maybe the atmosphere helps with thermal management. Or being on a planet is useful for the infrastructure that does something with all that power (beaming it to other planets, producing solid, liquid or antimatter fuel for export, refueling space ships or robots, etc). Tax purposes. Diplomatic reasons, maybe there are established protocols for owning planets but large scale light blocking installations in orbit would upset a neighboring nation (though you suspect their opposition has more to do with simmering tensions over the Agreppo peninsula than with concerns about the impact on agriculture). There are plenty of plausible reasons, probably all wrong.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#197

Post by saalweachter »

orblivion wrote: post #75

Do the philosophical arguments against "Intelligent Design" as a field of scientific inquiry apply here?

No, maybe, yes.

The philosophical argument against intelligent design is unfalsifiable (any evidence could have been created by an omnipotent creator for ineffable reasons), it is unnecessary to account for any of the evidence we have so far, and its proponents are not arguing in good faith.

"Could X be an alien megastructure?" isn't necessarily unfalsifiable, could be an attempt to account for evidence that doesn't fit in current theory, and could be in good faith, but it could also be proposed by people who just believe there are aliens out there in cases where there are obvious explanations and will just move on to a different "but this is definitely aliens" if the first doesn't pan out.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#198

Post by hermitcrab »

tromp wrote: post #47
jb1991 wrote: post #17

What is the "mathematically perfect" aspect of this system? I don't see it in the article.

As detailed in the companion article [1], for every 54 orbits of planet 1, planets 2..6 orbit 36, 24, 16, 12, and 8 times respectively, giving successive ratios of 2/3, 2/3, 2/3, 3/4 and 3/4. After those 54 planet 1 orbits, all planets are in the same relative position. [1] https://www.space.com/six-sub-neptunes-found-100-light-years...

It is not at all clear to me why the harmonics makes it any more worth searching for aliens than any other solar system. a) Why would aliens expend the enormous energy required to engineer this? b) Isn't it vastly more likely to occur naturally as some sort of resonance effect?

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#199

Post by [deleted] »

onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #101

I think the authors do not understand how planetary resonances work and how precise (or imprecise) the orbits need to be for the resonance to hold. Resonances are very common. We have lots of resonances in our Solar system in all different places between bodies. For the resonance to be stable, two bodies do not need to have mathematically precise orbits in relation to each other. There is quite a wide margin for erro…

[deleted]

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#200

Post by theossuary »

lisper wrote: post #191
bloggie wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that the expected outcome when energy production eventually outpaces the planet’s ability to dissipate energy into space?

No. The temperature of the atmosphere has nothing to do with whether or not aliens are harvesting the energy. At equilibrium, all of the incoming energy has to get radiated back out into space eventually whether there are aliens harvesting that energy or not. The problem with an atmosphere hotter than lava is that very few materials are solid at those temperatures, and it's hard to imagine how a civilization could bu…

This is a great video that touches on your point, the Earth must radiate the heat it receives to stay in equilibrium, even if it uses it to do work in the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxL2HoqLbyA

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