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Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

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Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#71

Post by mc32 »

piva00 wrote: post #69
mc32 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Break even points —just like outsourcing development. At some point it makes sense to offshore and at some point you want to keep some work stateside. It’s about tradeoffs. There is a point where it makes economic sense to send that work to Mexico.

Again, if we are considering the original comment I replied to about medium-term vs long-term, a move offshore to Mexico will always make sense in the long-term unless Mexican labour becomes as expensive as USA. Considering break even points it will always make sense to move out, reasons to not move are the local incentives in the form of tax breaks and invested capital in factories, if the consideration is only abou…

One of the problems with the Union-Company relationship is that it's not long-term symbiotic. A union is apt to milk the cow dry. A company will put up with a union as long as it has to but not longer. It's a contentious relationship. It need not be. The relationship could be more cooperative, but it isn't. Cooperative unions are seen as weak and accommodating. Companies that voluntarily unionize are at a disadvantage --they are less flexible and will eventually lose out to the non-unionized company, unless there is some kind of regulatory capture going on.

We could kind of have our cake and eat it too if we became more protectionist and also modified the Union-Company relationship to be less contentious. If we prioritized the good of the American worker and society (to the disadvantage of other world economies) Wealth would be less unevenly distributed. Total wealth would decrease and efficiency would be reduced, but very likely we would have a happier American society but also likely a poorer international worker. Of course, this would also require strict immigration weighted more on ability rather than simple willingness to work for cheap.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#72

Post by toomuchtodo »

refurb wrote: post #8
grecy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unionized workers consistently have higher pay, better benefits and more rights. Next time you see the headline about some company laying off thousands of people while simultaneously making record profits and paying their CEO some number of hundreds of millions of dollars per year, ask yourself why that never seems to happen to unionized workers. Next time you see the headline about the "working poor" that ha…

Worked great for Detroit! Like rent control, unions often protect existing workers at the expense of everyone else. And that protection can extend into retaining bad workers, punishing highly productive workers. Not that all unions are a net negative but many are.

Workers need protection from everyone else; corporations and consumers would take everything if left unregulated. Like an expanding gas, you must build a box to constrain.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#73

Post by rickydroll »

daniel-s wrote: post #25
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

who is likely to be more successful in negotiating with a very large corporation like Mercedes? A union representing thousands of workers or, an individual that is replaceable no matter what skills they have?

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#74

Post by linksnapzz »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #56
wnc3141 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future switching costs to a new plant are non trivial as well

If the plant is producing at expected amounts, the cost of paying a human and union acceptable wage won't be that much. A union contract means you won't have labor strife later, just negotiate a contact. Without a union you have endless turmoil and mad workers who are thinking about having a union.

>Without a union you have endless turmoil and mad workers who are thinking about having a union

That plant has been in operation for almost 30 years without a union.

The UAW staffing rules are probably a bigger sticking-point than the dollar-amount of salary.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#75

Post by linksnapzz »

lmm wrote: post #31
Swizec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you also hear of the people who work their butt off and can’t get promoted because union rules say promotions happen on tenure not tenure. And of unions where the ceo and union president are golf buddies and they negotiate oh so very hard to get raises that don’t even match inflation. There’s good and bad in both worlds. Ultimately the best defense you can have as a worker is to have in-demand skills and to think…

A union is like a lawyer. There are good and bad ones, and you may have to pay attention and hold their feet to the fire. But you're usually still a lot better off having one in your corner than trying to handle it yourself.

You can fire your lawyer. "Quit your job" isn't exactly the equivalent.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#76

Post by lmm »

linksnapzz wrote: post #75
lmm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is like a lawyer. There are good and bad ones, and you may have to pay attention and hold their feet to the fire. But you're usually still a lot better off having one in your corner than trying to handle it yourself.

You can fire your lawyer. "Quit your job" isn't exactly the equivalent.

You can vote out your union representatives.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#77

Post by MisterBastahrd »

Swizec wrote: post #11
grecy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unionized workers consistently have higher pay, better benefits and more rights. Next time you see the headline about some company laying off thousands of people while simultaneously making record profits and paying their CEO some number of hundreds of millions of dollars per year, ask yourself why that never seems to happen to unionized workers. Next time you see the headline about the "working poor" that ha…

But you also hear of the people who work their butt off and can’t get promoted because union rules say promotions happen on tenure not tenure. And of unions where the ceo and union president are golf buddies and they negotiate oh so very hard to get raises that don’t even match inflation. There’s good and bad in both worlds. Ultimately the best defense you can have as a worker is to have in-demand skills and to think…

Are you unaware that people who "work their butt off" usually end up being promoted to non-union positions? My dad was union until he was promoted to manager. Then he stopped being union. So was my uncle. So was my brother in law. It happens all the time. And the best part is that the management position they get usually ends up being directly influenced by the union wages and benefits, because why would you just take on extra responsibility for no extra pay?

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#78

Post by StudyAnimal »

rickydroll wrote: post #73
daniel-s wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

who is likely to be more successful in negotiating with a very large corporation like Mercedes? A union representing thousands of workers or, an individual that is replaceable no matter what skills they have?

From my experience, it’s the individual. I always get paid more than the union members. I also notice that the non union members seem to have a bit more motivation and spirit and their own idea about their goals and where they want to go compared to the union members who seem to delegate the progress of their careers to their employers.

Clearly it’s not a case of one being better than the other. It’s great we have the choice. Unions are good for some types of people and job but terrible for others.

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