'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#151

Post by BirAdam » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:02 PM UTC

nicklecompte wrote: post #78

aqme28 wrote: post #3

Are we more likely to find alien tech in a "mathematically perfect" star system? Why? The article doesn't mention it.

This title is pure clickbait which preys on peoples ignorance about astronomy + millennia of unscientific ideology about the Golden Ratio. Orbital resonance is a common phenomenon - the Galilean moons of Jupiter are in resonant orbits - and I suspect this system is interesting but not unique. In fact a quick search found a different system with 5 resonant orbits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOI-178 Orbital resonanc…

Upvoted ya cuz you’re correct. However, I’d add that while nature can absolutely create straight lines, it is often advisable to investigate for prior human activity if you stumble upon a straight line in a cave or under the ocean.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#152

Post by julienchastang » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:05 PM UTC

thereisnoself wrote: post #133

I've often thought planet TrEs-2b [0], the darkest planet ever discovered orbiting a star, would be the best candidate for extra terrestrial life. My theory is that its darkness is down to the fact that the civilisation there has figured out a way to harness solar energy to near 100% capacity, along the lines of a Dyson sphere [1]. [0] https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/exoplanet-catalog/1716/tres-2-b [1] https://en.wikiped…

The NASA exoplanet visualizer is very cool. Did not know about that. Thanks for sharing. I imagine those hypothetical visualizations will improve over time as our understanding of the exoplanet data gets better. It is amazing what you can derive from a single pixel of light.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#153

Post by foofie » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:05 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #126

foofie wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless the alien civilization has some way to destroy energy (...) If the point of a Dyson sphere is to collect energy, wouldn't it be enough to just use it or store it?

To use, not to collect. And thermodynamics appears to say you can't just store it. A stellar mass black hole might be an interesting "cold end" in this regard… if you can find or make one, but to do that you'd need to start with a Dyson swarm.

> To use, not to collect. And thermodynamics says you can't just store it.

I don't think these semantic games are productive. Thermodynamics says you can transform energy. "Collect" in this context means using energy in a way that allows you to retrieve it in the future. For example, charging a battery or condenser with light with a PV panel, powering a motor that accelerates a flywheel, coiling a spring, heating a material, etc.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#154

Post by BirAdam » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

fullstackchris wrote: post #142

SamBam wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why it would require alien technology to keep it perfect. Why they'd do this, though, would be a mystery.

seems like it'd be a primitive way (in one way, obviously not in the tech sense) of displaying power

So, like, the aliens elected a lizard version of Donald Trump? Make the planets gold and it all tracks.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#155

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

DrBazza wrote: post #103

To paraphrase Pratchett: million to one chances happen nine times out of ten. Space is big, really big, etc. so it's no surprise we've found something like this just through chance alone. One of the planets is probably Bethselamin.

Yeah... feels like someone isn't familiar with the law of large numbers...

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#156

Post by arethuza » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #145

wombatpm wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Orbitals - The Tiny Houses of solar scale structures

Every megastructure is an invisible dot compared to the next size up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKSRKT0nzM

There is also The Ring in the Xeelee universe - which is millions of lightyears across:

https://xeelee.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ring

Mind you it might not count as it's a means of escape, not a place to live.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#157

Post by downWidOutaFite » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:13 PM UTC

dmazin wrote: post #144

thereisnoself wrote: post #133

I've often thought planet TrEs-2b [0], the darkest planet ever discovered orbiting a star, would be the best candidate for extra terrestrial life. My theory is that its darkness is down to the fact that the civilisation there has figured out a way to harness solar energy to near 100% capacity, along the lines of a Dyson sphere [1]. [0] https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/exoplanet-catalog/1716/tres-2-b [1] https://en.wikiped…

That’s an interesting exoplanet, though not sure how someone would live on a gas giant.

Presumably gas planets have a layer dense enough that a solid would float.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#158

Post by seanhunter » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:13 PM UTC

primer42 wrote: post #125

What is a "mathematically perfect" orbit?

It obeys Kepler's laws really really well. As opposed to those mathematically imperfect orbits that sometimes get the signs wrong when they do integration by parts and end up sending the planet spinning off in the wrong direction.

But seriously others in the various threads above have explained but it's to do with the orbital periods forming precise ratios so the planets align very pleasingly every now and then.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#159

Post by nicklecompte » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:14 PM UTC

BirAdam wrote: post #151

nicklecompte wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This title is pure clickbait which preys on peoples ignorance about astronomy + millennia of unscientific ideology about the Golden Ratio. Orbital resonance is a common phenomenon - the Galilean moons of Jupiter are in resonant orbits - and I suspect this system is interesting but not unique. In fact a quick search found a different system with 5 resonant orbits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOI-178 Orbital resonanc…

Upvoted ya cuz you’re correct. However, I’d add that while nature can absolutely create straight lines, it is often advisable to investigate for prior human activity if you stumble upon a straight line in a cave or under the ocean.

My point is that the phrase "mathematically perfect" is very misleading because it makes us think of straight lines and perfect circles but this simply is not the same kind of mathematical "perfection." I suspect this is more like an unusually high-quality gemstone than it is an perfectly round rock - very rare but not particularly mysterious. In particular this is an example of the six-body problem and orbital resonance might be a steady state if all the planets have similar mass.

Re: 'Mathematically perfect' star system being investigated for potential alien tech

#160

Post by tejtm » Wed, Feb 28, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

swores wrote: post #89

tromp wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As detailed in the companion article [1], for every 54 orbits of planet 1, planets 2..6 orbit 36, 24, 16, 12, and 8 times respectively, giving successive ratios of 2/3, 2/3, 2/3, 3/4 and 3/4. After those 54 planet 1 orbits, all planets are in the same relative position. [1] https://www.space.com/six-sub-neptunes-found-100-light-years...

> After those 54 planet 1 orbits, all planets are in the same position. Could you please explain what you mean by this, as to my layman's ears that sounds like either a confusingly-worded sentence, or an impossibility (multiple planets in the same location at the same time). Do they just all pass through one specific same location once per orbit but at different times? Or something else I'm not imagining?

The same thing said different. Every 54 planet-one orbits, a line from the star to planet-one would continue on through the rest of the planets. (* assuming they are nominally on the same plane)