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Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

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Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#61

Post by johnnyanmac »

mc32 wrote: post #17
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a trap? Seems pretty obvious for a worker to why this makes sense.

It’s good in the medium term, but in the longer term production will be moved to Mexico. No reason not to and a union of a reason to move.

Companies constantly want to try and outsource everything outside of he US, while trying to take advantage of the US economy and population. Seems like more often than not they fail once they realize most other 1st world countries' labor law are more annoying for a company than any union, and many 2nd/3rd world countries lack the talent if they need more than assembly line level labor done (and if they don't want to train US labor, they sure arent going to develop these countries). Or even more simply, when deploying latency and costs end up cancelling out any potential savings.

Much easier to eat the higher costs, hire and fire aggressively in the US (not that I agree nor approve, but sad reality with current labor laws), and try to grease the hands of US congress to sweeten the pot ever so slightly.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#62

Post by wnc3141 »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #56
wnc3141 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future switching costs to a new plant are non trivial as well

If the plant is producing at expected amounts, the cost of paying a human and union acceptable wage won't be that much. A union contract means you won't have labor strife later, just negotiate a contact. Without a union you have endless turmoil and mad workers who are thinking about having a union.

Interesting points about unions providing reliability to the firm . Hadn't considered that benefit.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#63

Post by rcbdev »

mc32 wrote: post #17
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a trap? Seems pretty obvious for a worker to why this makes sense.

It’s good in the medium term, but in the longer term production will be moved to Mexico. No reason not to and a union of a reason to move.

In Austria, ~98% of all employees are under union contracts and get a vote in the chamber of labor.

According to you, the Austrian economy should be in shambles. Instead, Austria boasts one of of not the most livable environments on earth.

It's crazy how the USA vehemently refuses to learn anything from other countries.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#65

Post by snapplebobapple »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #56
wnc3141 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future switching costs to a new plant are non trivial as well

If the plant is producing at expected amounts, the cost of paying a human and union acceptable wage won't be that much. A union contract means you won't have labor strife later, just negotiate a contact. Without a union you have endless turmoil and mad workers who are thinking about having a union.

The wage cost of a union to a company is isually minor vs the loss of control of the firing process

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#66

Post by refurb »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #14
refurb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worked great for Detroit! Like rent control, unions often protect existing workers at the expense of everyone else. And that protection can extend into retaining bad workers, punishing highly productive workers. Not that all unions are a net negative but many are.

It's vastly easier to find a bad employer than it is to find a bad union when it comes to employee benefits and wages.

The very fact there are way more employers than unions? That makes it obvious.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#67

Post by piva00 »

mc32 wrote: post #17
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a trap? Seems pretty obvious for a worker to why this makes sense.

It’s good in the medium term, but in the longer term production will be moved to Mexico. No reason not to and a union of a reason to move.

And is there a reason to not move to Mexico even without an union?

Labour will be cheaper anyway, what's stopping a company from milking the local population for as much as possible, paying as low as possible and when people start to get fed up with it and they just move it to Mexico?

There's no rational basis for this fear of unions, what you fear is globalisation itself, it's already happened, and it was caused by USA-exported economics ideology since the 80s in the form of neoliberalism.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#68

Post by mc32 »

piva00 wrote: post #67
mc32 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s good in the medium term, but in the longer term production will be moved to Mexico. No reason not to and a union of a reason to move.

And is there a reason to not move to Mexico even without an union? Labour will be cheaper anyway, what's stopping a company from milking the local population for as much as possible, paying as low as possible and when people start to get fed up with it and they just move it to Mexico? There's no rational basis for this fear of unions, what you fear is globalisation itself, it's already happened, and it was caused by…

Break even points —just like outsourcing development. At some point it makes sense to offshore and at some point you want to keep some work stateside.

It’s about tradeoffs. There is a point where it makes economic sense to send that work to Mexico.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#69

Post by piva00 »

mc32 wrote: post #68
piva00 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And is there a reason to not move to Mexico even without an union? Labour will be cheaper anyway, what's stopping a company from milking the local population for as much as possible, paying as low as possible and when people start to get fed up with it and they just move it to Mexico? There's no rational basis for this fear of unions, what you fear is globalisation itself, it's already happened, and it was caused by…

Break even points —just like outsourcing development. At some point it makes sense to offshore and at some point you want to keep some work stateside. It’s about tradeoffs. There is a point where it makes economic sense to send that work to Mexico.

Again, if we are considering the original comment I replied to about medium-term vs long-term, a move offshore to Mexico will always make sense in the long-term unless Mexican labour becomes as expensive as USA.

Considering break even points it will always make sense to move out, reasons to not move are the local incentives in the form of tax breaks and invested capital in factories, if the consideration is only about labour (which the take on unions making it easier for the move) it always make sense to move, regardless if it's a unionised workforce or not. Non-unionisation only delays this inevitability by allowing the company to milk the employees for a little longer, in the long-term it will eventually pack up and move if the incentives are not maintained (again in the form of tax breaks or if the company has recently re-invested in existing facilities).

To me, again, the fear of globalisation's side-effects is not a good excuse to promote a lack of worker solidarity, it only makes workers more powerless since at some point in the long-term the break even point is reached, without an union there's no collective force to pushback a company's decision to move their production somewhere else with cheaper labour, at least with an union there will be a conversation and negotiation around it.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#70

Post by [deleted] »

tomrod wrote: post #21
chatmasta wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a union might net workers who join it higher pay in the short term, but who's to say that they aren't missing out on significant wage increases in the long term? You'll never see that counterfactual, and as a union gains momentum, it becomes increasingly unlikely we'll ever know how the workers might have performed without the union.

> but who's to say Economic theory, strategic behavior, and repeated observations through history (leading to the genesis if unions).

[deleted]
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