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Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

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Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#41

Post by jojobas »

gwbrooks wrote: post #30
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

It was a ~$600 million (2024 dollars) investment to build the plant and its economic footprint is about $1.5 billion a year. No matter how MB management feels about Alabama and its laws, stockholders would hang 'em from lamposts if they shut down that plant on a whim.

It's not necessarily a whim, and maybe is a sunk costs fallacy.

The 600M wouldn't mark down to zero if they decided to shut it down.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#42

Post by earthwalker99 »

daniel-s wrote: post #25
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

The ruling class colludes and bargains any and every way they please. Among l other things, it's hypocritical to suggest that labors shouldn't be allowed to do the same.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#43

Post by lmm »

daniel-s wrote: post #25
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

> I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

It would be nice if fair pay magically happened. But the reality is that most employers will pay you as little as they can get away with, regardless of how hard you work, how much you invested in your skills, or how good your attitude.

Most people are much smaller than the company they work for, are not expert negotiators, and don't have agents working on their behalf. They're overwhelmingly likely to get paid closer to what they deserve with a union than without one. Yes, sometimes there will be free riders (and that's part of why e.g. legal closed shop rules are important), but that applies to virtually everything you can do to try and improve your life.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#44

Post by d4mi3n »

daniel-s wrote: post #25
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

The point of a union is to represent its members. Not all unions are good, but good unions should and do advocate for better working conditions and compensation for their members.

It’s fine to not agree with this but it’s also important to recognize that, in many industries, employees have no leverage to individually bargain for more pay. Corporate policy or a monopoly on a job market means a business won’t have financial incentive to pay any more than the minimum they can to maintain enough of a workforce to remain profitable.

Add to that a general desire for public companies to prioritize short term stock gains over long term growth and we end up with a common operating state that can be pretty harsh for the average participant of the US economy.

Generally, if a manufacturing job is the only available job in town, you take it, move (if you can afford to), or go hungry.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#45

Post by wnc3141 »

jojobas wrote: post #41
gwbrooks wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a ~$600 million (2024 dollars) investment to build the plant and its economic footprint is about $1.5 billion a year. No matter how MB management feels about Alabama and its laws, stockholders would hang 'em from lamposts if they shut down that plant on a whim.

It's not necessarily a whim, and maybe is a sunk costs fallacy. The 600M wouldn't mark down to zero if they decided to shut it down.

Future switching costs to a new plant are non trivial as well

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#46

Post by komali2 »

daniel-s wrote: post #25
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

> I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing.

I can see how, especially in the USA, this might be what you hear. Are you open to some simple facts on the ground illustrating how this isn't really accurate?

In terms of contributions, the results are real and measurable: https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ on average 20% increase in wages and 28% increase in total compensation. Typically wages increase across the board, however lower-wage workers see higher percentage increases. That doesn't equate to higher-wage workers getting lower wages in unionized industries, though. There's a concept called "the union wage premium" that holds time and time again, wherein union jobs, no matter the skill level, on average pay 10% more.

Union workers also usually have better pension plans and more vacation time.

> I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

Unions aren't communist dictatorships, depending on the union and industry there'll still be pay tiers based on seniority and skill. And, on average, you will simply see higher pay, no matter your skill level. If you truly believe that you're the 1% of stellar worker and are compensated as such, and might make less under the union, first I'd point out that that doesn't really happen, and second I'd point out, there's always a better worker. Seems to me better to err on collective bargaining and seeing your coworkers as allies rather than your bosses, considering incentives.

Not to mention wages aren't the only thing on the table: benefits like time off, health care, whether the company can lay a bunch of people off, etc, are all protections you simply can't bargain for on your own no matter what kind of 100x engineer you are. See: all the stellar engineers that Google laid off (after they axed the contractors, they came top down from their priciest engineers it seems!).

I would challenge you: from whom are you typically hearing anti-union propaganda? In my experience it's from people and entire industries that are clearly and objectively financially motivated to be opposed to unions.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#47

Post by consp »

greenavocado wrote: post #9
grecy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unionized workers consistently have higher pay, better benefits and more rights. Next time you see the headline about some company laying off thousands of people while simultaneously making record profits and paying their CEO some number of hundreds of millions of dollars per year, ask yourself why that never seems to happen to unionized workers. Next time you see the headline about the "working poor" that ha…

No problem, the manufacturing will move to Mexico.

So people should just accept that they get poorer every year and then the plant still moves abroad when the tax incentives stop?

The fairy tale of "unions are bad" is only good for the rich who get paid either way, just more without unions.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#48

Post by komali2 »

refulgentis wrote: post #28
nycdatasci wrote: post #27

It seems like the bulk of the comments here are in response to a dead comment. @dang: Can we either revive the dead comment or suppress the entire story?

I'm curious, why the dichotomy?

IMO the comment is flamebait and the bait was effective, I'm strongly resisting the urge to chuck my hat in the ring.

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#49

Post by joecool1029 »

Full_Clark wrote: post #26
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

wasn't there some kerfuffle years ago with a Mercedes exec getting arrested at a traffic stop? Something about an invalid or missing passport and a program targeting undocumented immigrants driving in Alabama.

Not just the Mercedes exec, but a Honda one as well: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/02/alabama-car-bo...

Re: Majority of workers at Mercedes plant in Alabama sign UAW authorization cards

#50

Post by wnc3141 »

daniel-s wrote: post #25
xyst wrote: post #7

Good for them. Got to keep unions alive for that collective bargaining. Given the recent state court rulings in AL, I am honestly surprised Mercedes is even keeping the plant open.

I always saw unions as a bureaucratic/political layer that sits on top of workers, collecting money without contributing. I also don't think that people should all get the same pay or collectively bargain. Some people work harder, invest more in their skills, bring a better attitude, etc. They should get paid more.

Important to note that there is little differentiation of labor productivity in mechanized labor environments. I can't operate a machine faster than the guy next to me. We can only both competently operate the machine. Enabling safe operation of machinery is critical to workers and may have downward pressure without pushback from employees. An organization of employees is necessary to pushback against the scale of a corporation. Employees form a union protecting standards of pay and safe labor practices for all operators of machines.

For the above, imaging those machine operators are airline pilots.

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