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Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

bartvanzon.com

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Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#41

Post by matt312 »

axefrog wrote: post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

You're right, supporting IE9 isn't hard at all. IE8 is the problem. It's amazing how many people still use 8 -- and it's because of corporations who are slow to update software. The thing that annoys me is that Microsoft knows that businesses will use the current version of IE for many years to come, so they should be as cutting edge as possible, but they don't seem to care.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#42

Post by doc4t »

stutter wrote: post #31

You don't have comments on your blog, so I'll comment here: IE testing is "hard" on a Mac because of the vm requirement, yes. However, that's not even my main issue. If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers, it'd still be "hard" but at least they'd be helping. IE only runs on Windows, so if you want to test for Windows you have a bunch of s…

Safari testing on Windows is "hard". For whatever reason Safari on Win can produce different outcomes than on Mac. Further I don't even have the option of running OS X in a vm unless I settle for a hackintosh.

"First, the development tools available to Internet Explorer are absolute butt hole"

Yes the build-in dev tools are not on par with the other browsers but I wouldn't say that Visual Studio is butt hole. I don't use it myself but as I understand it is generally acclaimed to be one of the best IDEs. If you don't want to run VS which I perfectly understand then go with MS Script debugger. It would probably bring down your number of "shit giggles"

"It feels like Microsoft deliberately takes the stance of making it HARD to develop software for Internet Explorer"

It feels like Apple deliberately takes the stance of making it HARD to develop software for Safari qua not providing vms.

"Supporting IE is a time sink, but not just because it's "hard" to set up Windows environments,"

I can provide the same argument for any system which I am not familiar with.

"but because Microsoft actively tries to make it hard for developers to code, test, and debug applications in Internet Explorer."

From what my MS developer coworkers say they are actually quite pleased with how much MS gets involved in their development community. But that's just anecdotal I guess...

"I've been developing on Mac for 4 years and haven't used Internet Explorer as an every-day browser in 7 years"

Well maybe it is time to learn it again then. Lots of things have improved. What do you know - you might even make life easier for yourself...

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#43

Post by bartj3 »

stutter wrote: post #31

You don't have comments on your blog, so I'll comment here: IE testing is "hard" on a Mac because of the vm requirement, yes. However, that's not even my main issue. If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers, it'd still be "hard" but at least they'd be helping. IE only runs on Windows, so if you want to test for Windows you have a bunch of s…

I'm not a html/css frontend developer so I don't need to test on IE too often, however, when I do I use Virtualbox with some different windows installations. Works like a charm.

I have no experience with the development tools in IE8+ (I've been a Mac user for a while now), but I've been told they're pretty descent. I completely agree though, debugging in the older IE's is hell...

But the thing is, the user couldn't care less whether a developers work is easy or hard, the user wants a good experience. And thats the job (most) frontend developers chose, if developers don't want to do that, they shouldn't be a frontend developer.

I used to hate getting websites to work in IE6, which is why I don't do html/css anymore (I became a Flash dev, so I'm switching again). If frontend devs don't like their job, they shouldn't blame Microsoft for making "crappy browsers" or a "though enviroment", they should find another job.

Thanks for taking your time to comment on my post, even while I don't have a commentform on my blog (couldn't find a descent commenting solution for Octopress).

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#45

Post by masklinn »

stutter wrote: post #31

You don't have comments on your blog, so I'll comment here: IE testing is "hard" on a Mac because of the vm requirement, yes. However, that's not even my main issue. If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers, it'd still be "hard" but at least they'd be helping. IE only runs on Windows, so if you want to test for Windows you have a bunch of s…

> If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers

Which they do, they've been offering complete VM images with various combinations of Windows and IE for some time, the current offering is XP + IE6, Vista + IE7, Win7 + IE8 and Win7 + IE9: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=1157...

While the images are for VirtualPC, I've yet to have any issue importing them in VMWare or VirtualBox.

> IE8 made some improvements to JS debugging (SOME) and is vastly better than 6 and 7. IE9 might be amazing, and IE10 might be the best browser in the world - I don't know. All I know is that debugging IE takes almost as long as building the application did in the first place.

IE9's devtools are significantly better than IE8's: more feature and much more stability. They are nowhere near WDT/Firebug yet (or even Dragonfly), but they are a huge improvement over the POS that IE8's devtools are.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#46

Post by axefrog »

EdiX wrote: post #29
axefrog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. Microsoft is not some horrible uncle who did you a great wrong and needs "forgiving". It's a company. The people who work there come and go, change departments and so forth. Yeah, sure, the people who worked in the highest positions back in the day employed some shitty tactics way back when, but times have changed, many of those people have moved on and much of the company's outlook has shifted significan…

Yeah, sure, the people who worked in the highest positions back in the day employed some shitty tactics way back when Like not allowing other browser on some devices, requiring locked down BIOS, patent lawsuits against competitors. Oh, wait, that all happened this year.

Yeah, they should be more like Apple and make it so you can install whatever you wan... oh wait...

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#47

Post by masklinn »

powertower wrote: post #39
givan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain. They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard. IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because…

IE6 came out in 2001, and at that time was the most standards-compliant and feature full of all the browsers on the market.

> at that time was the most standards-compliant

Nope, IE5/Mac was better.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#48

Post by masklinn »

doc4t wrote: post #42
stutter wrote: post #31

You don't have comments on your blog, so I'll comment here: IE testing is "hard" on a Mac because of the vm requirement, yes. However, that's not even my main issue. If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers, it'd still be "hard" but at least they'd be helping. IE only runs on Windows, so if you want to test for Windows you have a bunch of s…

Safari testing on Windows is "hard". For whatever reason Safari on Win can produce different outcomes than on Mac. Further I don't even have the option of running OS X in a vm unless I settle for a hackintosh. "First, the development tools available to Internet Explorer are absolute butt hole" Yes the build-in dev tools are not on par with the other browsers but I wouldn't say that Visual Studio is butt hole. I don't…

> Safari testing on Windows is "hard". For whatever reason Safari on Win can produce different outcomes than on Mac.

FYI, all browsers can and do. That happens on Firefox and Chrome as well (though maybe less regularly)

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#49

Post by PaulHoule »

It's pretty funny... Back in 2003 I worked at a place which couldn't test software on Macs because they had an exclusive procurement contract with Dell.

As things turned out, I bought my first Mac, with my own money, so I could do this kind of testing.

Now today, Macbook Pros are the fashionable thing west coast developers use -- they are pretty nice machines. Except for the fact that they can only be loaded with 8 GB of RAM and for the kind of work I do, that's not enough.

So instead of being able to do the work on your local machine and have no problems with VPN, debuggers, and all that, you need to rent a machine that's $8000 a year in AWS and you don't get the benefit of turning it off when you don't need it because the Ops guy is involved with turning it on and off and god forbid another dev wants to use it and its turned off...

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#50

Post by gm »

stutter wrote: post #31

You don't have comments on your blog, so I'll comment here: IE testing is "hard" on a Mac because of the vm requirement, yes. However, that's not even my main issue. If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers, it'd still be "hard" but at least they'd be helping. IE only runs on Windows, so if you want to test for Windows you have a bunch of s…

Hmmm In IE9 you can switch browser mode to previous versions (back to IE7).

Seems a lot of people on HN are still stuck X years ago when things sucked and they refuse to look at things as they are today, just like you state in your "IE9 might be amazing [...]" comment. That just calls into question, though, your comments on how hard it _is_ to develop for IE. All you have said is how hard it _was_ to develop for IE.

Anyway, I don't buy the whiny bit of "I don't want to do it because it's hard to do." Seems like a cop out and more aimed to justify prejudices.

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