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Punk is dead and so are we

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Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#121

Post by robcohen »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #52
wizerdrobe wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know to what degree it’s “a thing” but I know a lot of 30-something punks from my old scene that are now into a kind of homesteading vibe. Moved out to the surrounding countryside as much for economic as ideological reasons. Some are all the way into off-the-grid, home schooling, etc. Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?

> Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess? Pithily put. I can definitely attest that this is my plan and the plans of a few others I know. Home baked bread and sour dough starter feel pretty anti-corporate to me. That said, I do recognise that going off grid requires heavy machinery and tools that are produced by the biggest of corporations... but somehow Milwaukee tools see…

I’m doing this, and yes you are still dependent on corps, but the dependency is different. There’s something very different about buying a skid loader at auction and repairing it yourself than there is with living in an apartment complex where maintenance feels it’s ok to come into your apartment whenever they please (after “trying” to call). Merely owning things that corps make isn’t bad. It’s bad when it becomes feudalism and you lose all control over the things you “own”.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#122

Post by obscurette »

tsylba wrote: post #113
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

80's Punks were the Tricksters of ancient mythology (eg. Coyote in amerindians culture), it always been the role of those at the margins of Society dealing with uncomfortable other realities, bringing liminal space into our collective consciousness. Punks are not dead, they (or more precisely their archetypal essence) have just shape shifted into another form we fail to recognize as we age while their prior shell hav…

If you want a nerdy sci-fi take on it, then "The City and the Stars" by Arthur C. Clarke is the one to read.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#123

Post by AndyNemmity »

RiverCrochet wrote: post #88

> Capitalist Realism’s early chapters touch on what we we talking about last time: the “alternative” youth subcultures at the turn of the century who romantically imagined they were rejecting a bland and soulless Mainstream by eschewing Top 40 musicians in favor of buying and listening to records by NOFX, Korn, Nine Inch Nails, et al. Music is just not a cultural carrier like it used to be. Young people aren't buying…

As a person with children, this doesn't seem true.

It might be true in the future, but there is still just as much obsessing over artists, and bands, that feels like it will last a lifetime.

Basically, I don't disagree with your premise, but my narrow evidence says it isn't true.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#124

Post by AndyNemmity »

corimaith wrote: post #32

One could argue though that being conservative (in a literal sense), is the reactionary "punk" to the ideas of modernism and innovation of previous eras. An interesting phenemenon is the emergence of the extremely popular game based works across different mediums; LitRPGs for Western Fantasy, Isekai/Narou for Japanese culture, and the "Hunter" manwha for Korea. These works tend to have a infamous reputation for being…

I think that's just differences in opinion in large part.

I grew up in the previous era, and clicking through dialog, and ignoring the story was a part of every single RPG I played.

My kind of thinking, the fiction was antithetical to the reasons I was drawn into RPGs.

The exact opposite of you, at the exact same time. But you are arguing the time is what is different.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#126

Post by viberf »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #109
bee_rider wrote: post #86

It is funny to note that “Punk is Dead” came out in 1977, but all the action in the article WRT punk is happening in the 90’s and beyond. The author acknowledges this in a way, though: > the only visible instantiation of a subcultural franchise putting on against-the-grain airs similar to those of the punks and goths of the 1990s (who had all been thoroughly domesticated by that point)[…] Anyway, I’m not sure who the…

Is it possible your affinity to the blue hair and pronouns subculture prevents you from seriously considering the author's analysis of it? To a gay man or transvestite (as they often called themselves, nothing derogatory meant by it) of yore, surely that movement represented freedom from repression. Today, when bigotry towards homosexuals is socially taboo, what does it mean to the allies, warriors and fluid genders?…

[flagged]

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#127

Post by MSFT_Edging »

dfxm12 wrote: post #72
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #2

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and…

Counter culture is one thing, but the important bit is DIY, maybe more specifically DIT, do it together. This isn't about being offline, private, modest, etc., it's about seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside. They understand that ticketmaster & live nation probably own most of the venues in town, so if you don't want to play by their rules, you'll have to spend your entertainment dollars elsewhere, or if you…

> to call the restaurants directly

I love doing this. I don't understand why people bother with the apps, it's just psychic torture knowing some MBA is getting my hard earned money just for making some radio boxes to middle-man it.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#128

Post by atlas_hugged »

DeathArrow wrote: post #77
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

Counterculture of today is the culture of yesterday,when no one called you a nazi bigot for doing things that were normal in the day.

There’s nothing counterculture to conservatism my good man. Hell, it’s in the name.

The left moves society forward, the right holds society back. I don’t like everything the young kids are doing but I know I will eventually be wrong, so I try to understand them and learn to embrace the change they bring. The young left will always, eventually, move society forward. Whether we like it or not. What you’re witnessing is people beginning to understand the paradox of tolerance. Complete tolerance towards all views will always fail because the intolerant will exploit the tolerant. Now that people understand that things are always, or even often, that simple. In order to maintain tolerance, you must also practice intolerance of intolerance. I see the whole “calling people a Nazi bigot” for saying things like “go woke or go broke” or things in that vein, is a part of that realization.

I’ve always of the mind of “free speech absolutism” as Elon calls it. Then I read about how Germany handled things post ww2 and concluded that they could no longer allow fully free speech if they were going to stop another Hitler from rising to power. They had to be intolerant to intolerance. It’s a dangerous precedent that requires great care to avoid a more dangerous outcome.

In general, being an angry hateful bigot of any kind has progressively been moved to the fringe of the right, instead of being smack dab in the middle of the mainstream.

Interracial marriage.

Slavery.

Voting rights for minorities and women.

Jim Crow.

Civil Rights.

Protection of Voting rights

Self ownership / Reproductive rights

Acceptance of LGBT+/GSRM communities.

Acceptance of minorities.

Same sex marriage.

Healthcare for all.

The right has met all of these with protest and violence. They eventually always lose, but not before killing a bunch of people on the left in the process.

You’re on the wrong side of history. I’ve been there. Figure out why you’re so resistant to change/progress. Figure out why you’re so angry all the time. Figure out why you’re so filled with hate.

If you’re surrounded by hateful people, figure out how to leave those people behind. Don’t announce your intentions. Don’t evangelize your views. Just start your path to change. The people in your orbit will either move towards you or move away from you. Expect this. Most will move away, but some will see your example and follow it.

That’s the approach a friend of mine took when he decided he didn’t want to be a violent alcoholic anymore. He just decided to change. He didn’t ask me to change with him. He just did it. He never left my side so I never left his. Eventually, I followed in his example. Eventually, so did a couple of his other friends.

His approach helped me become a much happier person.

I hope it helps you.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#129

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

dfxm12 wrote: post #72
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #2

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and…

Counter culture is one thing, but the important bit is DIY, maybe more specifically DIT, do it together. This isn't about being offline, private, modest, etc., it's about seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside. They understand that ticketmaster & live nation probably own most of the venues in town, so if you don't want to play by their rules, you'll have to spend your entertainment dollars elsewhere, or if you…

While it is probably not possible to speak of "the entire punk movement" as a single thing (to the extent that there even is a punk movement per se), but the 1970s punk movement in London was not motivated by:

> seeing the rat race coming and stepping aside

it was a response to several different elements occuring alongside and simultaneously:

  * the bleakness of 1970s Britain
  * the perception of significant barriers to entry into the world of artistic creation (i.e. you needed to be "very good" or even "virtuosic" to participate)
  * racial dynamics unfolding as the children of the Windrush generation began to come of age, and new waves of immigrants from the "Commonwealth" were more visibly present. 
  * boredom with the latest Yes album
There was no rat race coming - almost nobody was going to participate in that (a good and a bad thing, all at once).

Now, punk in NYC at about the same time might have been very different, and I'm certain that punk in other places and later times has almost certainly been very different. But that original incarnation was not an attempt to avoid the rat race, it was a desperate reaching for something of one's own (even if that was just a white riot), because society wasn't going to give you anything worth having.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#130

Post by ethbr1 »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #52
wizerdrobe wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know to what degree it’s “a thing” but I know a lot of 30-something punks from my old scene that are now into a kind of homesteading vibe. Moved out to the surrounding countryside as much for economic as ideological reasons. Some are all the way into off-the-grid, home schooling, etc. Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?

> Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess? Pithily put. I can definitely attest that this is my plan and the plans of a few others I know. Home baked bread and sour dough starter feel pretty anti-corporate to me. That said, I do recognise that going off grid requires heavy machinery and tools that are produced by the biggest of corporations... but somehow Milwaukee tools see…

Be a machine tool in human form -- a tool that helps make other tools.

To me, true punking is equally material and social/emotional.

No one can be an island, especially without being reliant on corporate largess, but you can do your part... and form bonds with those of similar mind and help them.

And honestly, I get a perverse sense of satisfaction in being friends and nice to people with whom I may have many disagreements.

To me, punk strong feels like (a) giving people shit whenever you feel they deserve it, (b) being introspective enough to take shit when it's directed at you, & (c) helping the oddballs, weirdos, enemies-of-the-system when you can, even if you disagree with part of their beliefs.

When you unplug from mass culture, you lose the central touchstone that person-to-person relationships normally have, so have to be okay with an expanded definition of what "friend" looks like.

Or be a hermit, but that feels like passive punking.

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