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Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

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Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#91
post #65
post #39

The intuitive way for me to understand the Monte Hall problem is to pretended there are 1000 doors. You pick 1. There’s a 1 in 1000 chance you get it right. The host then opens 998 doors that don’t have the prize. Do you keep your original or do you switch? Are the odds 50:50?

The explanation that worked for me was: Suppose after you make your initial choice, instead of opening a door, Monty simply asks if you'd like to switch to BOTH the other two doors, such that you win if the prize is behind EITHER of them. That switch is intuitively a great deal, giving you 2/3 odds. The only way you can lose is in the 1/3rd case where you already picked a winner. The original scenario is equivalent t…

I think the important part of the problem is the unstated assumptions around it, and I suspect some people may see different assumptions than others.

If Monty always opens a door, and uses his knowledge of which door has the prize to ensure that the door he opens is always empty, then you should switch, because he's providing you with extra information about which door has the prize.

However, if Monty changes it up and sometimes doesn't open a door, or opens the door with the prize, the whole problem changes. If he only opens a door and offers you the chance to switch when you've picked the door with the prize, you should never switch of course. If he opens a random door and might reveal the prize (after which he obviously won't let you switch anymore), switching doesn't change your odds. I think a lot of people see it as one of those two situations.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#92
post #87
post #39

The intuitive way for me to understand the Monte Hall problem is to pretended there are 1000 doors. You pick 1. There’s a 1 in 1000 chance you get it right. The host then opens 998 doors that don’t have the prize. Do you keep your original or do you switch? Are the odds 50:50?

No explanation worked for me. I did a truth table, and said, "...huh." You don't need to model all three door choices. Just say you pick Door A, not Door 1. The first door you didn't pick is B, and C is the other door. Then map the prize behind each of 3 doors, and whether you stay or change your answer. Then count the number of successes for change versus stay. Spoilers: It's 3/6 vs 2/6.

My experience was I coded a simulation in Python and got 50/50.

... this revealed a major flaw in my intuition that helped me to grasp it. I had subconsciously been assuming Monty sometimes opens the door revealing the prize instead of always opening a goat door. When I coded that into the simulation, of course it broke (because the player was now playing foolishly, looking at the prize and intentionally choosing the closed door that definitely still had a goat behind it).

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#93
There's the Monty Hall Problem and then there's the Second Order Monty Hall Problem Problem.

That is, did the wording as it was originally printed unambiguously define the problem to be solved, or was it ambiguous enough that some people who got it wrong got it wrong for the right reason?

Like many others, I completely missed that when Monty opens a door to show you a goat, he always shows you a goat. I think under close inspection, the problem doesn't actually allow you to interpret otherwise. But, should a problem like this depend on parsing and identifying the ambiguity, or should the problem be defined with explicit details about the door opening?

Given how many otherwise extremely smart people have misunderstood the problem, I am still unsure whether this was an intentional choice in framing the question. I got it wrong and thought Vos Savant was wrong until I read one of the replies in her follow-up article (yes I read this when it first came out!) said they wrote a computer program and reproduced her results. The program implemention worked because they correctly modelled Monty's behavior. I think when people end up writing the program out the ambiguity becomes more obvious.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#94
post #88

Judging by the hazing Marilyn vos Savant received for her resolution of the Monty Hall problem, it seems like Twitter's preferred style of commentary isn't all that new.

But we already knew that because usenet.

Fair.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#95
The explanation in the article is fine as far as it goes, but I think it's much more helpful to emphasize one key fact, which is that MH has to show a goat, and can't open your first choice door, even if it's a goat. That means that if you did pick a goat the first time around, he can only have revealed the other goat, in which case switching will necessarily give you the car. That happens with probability 2/3.

This is implicit in the "100 doors, MH opens 98 of them" construction discussed in the article but making it explicit makes the idea quite clear and intuitive, even with just 3 doors.

I'm moderately sympathetic to the idea that this constraint is not immediately obvious from how the scenario is described, and could technically be ambiguous in some versions. I do think most people will agree that it makes sense to infer this constraint once you think about it. Obviously if he opened the door that you initially picked and it was a goat, you would know to switch to one of the other two (and have 1/2 chance of finding the car). (Or, more absurdly, he could just open the door with the car and you could choose it directly). Or you could imagine a game show where MH can choose to open a door or not, in which case the problem is not well-posed, because you would need to know how he makes the choice.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#96
post #39

The intuitive way for me to understand the Monte Hall problem is to pretended there are 1000 doors. You pick 1. There’s a 1 in 1000 chance you get it right. The host then opens 998 doors that don’t have the prize. Do you keep your original or do you switch? Are the odds 50:50?

I drew a decision tree once to show all possible states, with the 1/3 and 2/3 probabilities along each edge, which finally made it click for the coworkers I was trying to convince.

In the tree it becomes blindingly obvious that the probabilities are.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#97
I remember reading Marilyn vos Savant every week as a teenager. At the time I half suspected that she wasn't real--just a character made by a team or something. [This was before the internet, so I couldn't just ask Google.]

I'm happy that she's real and as smart as portrayed. But what really impressed me is how calmly she received all the negative feedback and personal insults. No matter what, she never lashed back. I have a feeling that's authentic too.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#98
post #39

The intuitive way for me to understand the Monte Hall problem is to pretended there are 1000 doors. You pick 1. There’s a 1 in 1000 chance you get it right. The host then opens 998 doors that don’t have the prize. Do you keep your original or do you switch? Are the odds 50:50?

The way I think about it, in general, is that Monty, by purposely not opening the correct door, is giving you a huge hint and thus changing the game which changes the odds. Think of it similarly to those people who play the same lotto #s all the time because they think eventually it has to hit. Well, no. It's a new game every time. If the lotto commission retired each combination that won each week, then sure. And th…

> And this is essentially what Monty is doing. He's retiring some doors and changing the odds.

That still leads to the wrong answer, because he is retiring one of the losers, leaving a 50:50 chance of getting a prize.

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#99

Total aside here, but this article is a good example of the problem, so I just want to point it out. People go digging, usually pretty hard, to find insults to use as capital in whatever point they are trying to make. In this case, yes, she received a lot of criticism and ad-hominem attacks for her correct answer. But she wasn't really criticized for being a woman, despite it being repeated multiple times in the arti…

[deleted]

Re: Marilyn vos Savant and the Monty Hall Problem (2015)

#100
post #60

As stated, the answer is indeterminate. To demonstrate, consider these scenarios. - Savant's Monty: The host knows where the car is, and wants to prolong the game. Switching wins 2/3 of the time. - Ignorant Monty: The host has no idea where the car is. Revealing the goat was luck and your odds remain 50-50. - Malicious Monty: The host knows where the car is, and wants you to lose. The fact that the host didn't reveal…

> Nowhere in the problem are Monty's knowledge and motivation stated.

"and the host, who knows what’s behind the doors, opens another door [..] which has a goat."

The question is clear: The host (1) knows what is behind each door and (2) always shows a goat. It's clearly a determinate problem.

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