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Punk is dead and so are we

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Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#81

Post by bigbillheck »

xcdzvyn wrote: post #53
kibwen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it's mainstream pop culture. This is highly dependent on context. In much of the world, it's dangerous to be openly sympathetic to LGBT causes, let alone openly LGBT. Even in much of the US, being openly gay is dangerous, and being openly trans is even more dangerous. A non-binary 16-year-old was murdered in Oklahoma this month; meanwhile, nobody's out here killing Swifties (at least, not yet).

>murdered That is an utter fabrication. >Police in the Tulsa suburb have not released a cause of death but said this week that the teenager did not die as a result of injuries from the fight.

They tried to say George Floyd wasn't murdered either.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#82

Post by dionidium »

bux93 wrote: post #70
tekla wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Its literally the dominant one. If Lockheed Martin is flying the rainbow colored flag, I have no idea how anyone would consider it counter culture.

The President 'pardoning' a Turkey for Christmas doesn't mean we suddenly live in a vegan society, in fact, rather the reverse.

The President pardoning a turkey is an expression of meat-eating culture, not vegetarianism -- we eat turkeys; that's why the symbolism works -- and meat-eating is indeed the dominant culture.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#83

Post by giraffe_lady »

bigbillheck wrote: post #73
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

People have been saying that for years and it's just as absurd now as it's ever been.

Yeah I think this is just stray fire from internal-facing propaganda by these communities. This is what they tell themselves (mostly their youth) but it doesn't take much scrutiny for it to fall apart. I say this as a religious person who is prone to this self-perception myself.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#84

Post by rglover »

Punk (in the conception of anyone born before the internet) is dead because bohemian degeneracy is mainstream. If we go by the standard of "being against the mainstream," today's punks would be people following the advice of the topless antagonist in John Prine's Spanish Pipedream [1]:

> Blow up your TV

> Throw away your paper

> Go to the country

> Build you a home

> Plant a little garden

> Eat a lot of peaches

> Try and find Jesus

> On your own

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPwq0YoOy4g

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#86

Post by bee_rider »

It is funny to note that “Punk is Dead” came out in 1977, but all the action in the article WRT punk is happening in the 90’s and beyond. The author acknowledges this in a way, though:

> the only visible instantiation of a subcultural franchise putting on against-the-grain airs similar to those of the punks and goths of the 1990s (who had all been thoroughly domesticated by that point)[…]

Anyway, I’m not sure who the “blue hair & pronouns” (as the author puts it) crowd is. If it is actually queer and trans people, I don’t think their motivation was ever to be counter-culture really: they are just intrinsically attracted to or identifying with the opposite gender, and would like to be mistreated less frequently for it. It isn’t a punk movement, it is one trying to get social acceptance.

If it is straight or cis people who are sort of associating with that culture, I suppose there might be some counter-culture aspect to it. But there’s also a strong element of just, like, authentic human empathy and allyship. I think that’s more important.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#87

Post by silverquiet »

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #55
mchinen wrote: post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities. There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : fi…

Which conservative religious community(ies) are you alluding to? That could probably be considered a snarky question, but I really don't know which religions have withstood the prying eyes of modernity; they all seem to have been exposed as about as rotten an institution as their secular counterparts.

Perhaps the Amish or something like that? And of course, they have their practices that we would consider unsavory anyway.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#88

Post by RiverCrochet »

> Capitalist Realism’s early chapters touch on what we we talking about last time: the “alternative” youth subcultures at the turn of the century who romantically imagined they were rejecting a bland and soulless Mainstream by eschewing Top 40 musicians in favor of buying and listening to records by NOFX, Korn, Nine Inch Nails, et al.

Music is just not a cultural carrier like it used to be.

Young people aren't buying music. I don't think music is a cool thing teenagers discover and make it part of themselves anymore in the same way they did in previous generations - there's just too much of it, it's chopped up into too many social bubbles, and no one except established regimes targeting older people can make money off of it. A 13 or 14 year old might obsess over some TikTok artist or band for a minute but it's not going to last a lifetime because the next thing everyone's talking about will replace it quickly.

I think we will soon see an era where young people don't care about music. It's not necessarily a bad thing, I don't really know if having rich popular, punk, whatever bands that try to coast on their fame for decades is worthwhile to society anyway.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#89

Post by claytongulick »

parineum wrote: post #35

I'm not familiar with the age of the author but the article very much makes me think they are old enough to have seen the counterculture of their youth become mainstream and die while the next wave of counterculture was "inauthentic and corporate" followed by being too out of touch with the youth to notice the counterculture coming up behind it (and mistaking the mainstream for the counterculture, ie, taylor swift, k…

> why parents are usually nonchalant and a bit dismissive of their children's "rebellious counterculture".

Indeed [1]. It seems to be a condition of youth, to a degree.

[1] https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-a...

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#90

Post by s1artibartfast »

colonwqbang wrote: post #27
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative would be libertarian socialism, with economy of some mixture of cooperative economics, decentralized planning, gift economy and library economy.

Do you have any good links that explain more? In my mind the ideas of socialism and libertarianism are polar opposites.

Here are some links to get you started. If you asked about my idea economic philosophy 10 years ago, I probably would have gone on at length about Proudon's Mutualism.

However, now I think that like Georgism/LVT, it is outdated due to the focus on Material means of production, and doesnt account for the increasing importance of white collar knowledge work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon#Philoso...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

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