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Microsoft is driving users away

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Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#251

Post by philistine »

Nition wrote: post #246
makeitdouble wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBF I don't think there's any control panels people are in love with. Apart from the issue of needing control panels mostly to solve problems, they're just not great. Windows legendarily keeps multiple versions of them, while for ios/macos it's a game of finding which image is actually a clickable button or understanding that wi-fi hotspot is under sharing and not networks. The FA was about command line incantation t…

> I don't think there's any control panels people are in love with. Not in the modern era, but I do love this one from Mac OS 1: https://i.imgur.com/XKfnGMl.png

That would be System 1. Mac OS is a modern invention.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#252

Post by hakfoo »

timetopay wrote: post #147
datagrimx wrote: post #124

For full Disclosure, I once upon was a software engineer at Microsoft. I witnessed first hand the evil decisions around Windows. I left Microsoft in 2006 but I am still part of the Alumni Network. IMO Microsoft can gain users back by: * Not requiring a Microsoft Account * Ending all data/telemetry collection * Not forcing Edge on its users * Stop releasing improved UI updates every week * Make bash, zsh, ... native f…

It's wild how annoying Windows UX can be when it's something that microsoft wants you to use, to help improve their services revenue. TBH, I'm on board with some of the negatives you listed, but I feel like the entire enthusiast community has been screaming about edge, telemetry, and start menu search for years. Microsoft seems determined not to listen, it's astonishing.

They may not consciously confirm it, but I suspect someone figured out "learned helplessness is good for business."

New users can be steered through every dark-pattern install process, and upsold into every service since they don't have existing preferences.

They can't directly revert power users to that state, but by keeping the UI in a state of constant flux, they might get some accidental traction from them.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#253

Post by sithadmin »

PicassoCTs wrote: post #140
Animats wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's amazing to me that Microsoft messed up Windows. It is. At Windows 7, they pretty much had desktops right. Everything mostly worked. They'd finally fixed the crashing problems. (How? The Static Driver Verifier validated that third-party kernel drivers would not crash the rest of the system, and a classifier applied to crash dumps routed similar crash dumps to the same maintainer.) The UI was reasonable for a de…

I sat near an administrator who loudly cursed all day, because they force that gui down upon all system internal tools and ruined the info-density of the dashboards.

As someone that’s been forced to reluctantly wear the ‘Windows sysadmin’ on and off for the past ~15 years due to circumstances beyond my control…this just sounds like the complaint of someone too lazy to learn PowerShell.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#254

Post by timetopay »

hakfoo wrote: post #252
timetopay wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild how annoying Windows UX can be when it's something that microsoft wants you to use, to help improve their services revenue. TBH, I'm on board with some of the negatives you listed, but I feel like the entire enthusiast community has been screaming about edge, telemetry, and start menu search for years. Microsoft seems determined not to listen, it's astonishing.

They may not consciously confirm it, but I suspect someone figured out "learned helplessness is good for business." New users can be steered through every dark-pattern install process, and upsold into every service since they don't have existing preferences. They can't directly revert power users to that state, but by keeping the UI in a state of constant flux, they might get some accidental traction from them.

The absolutely insane pattern of making people click "back" after seeing an email/password login screen to create an account without logging in...

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#255

Post by Brian_K_White »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #248
pierat wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between: 1. Updates have been applied (in the middle of your crucial thing). Reboot in 60 seconds. Fuck you if you think you can cancel haha. 2. Updates for the following packages are available. Apply: Now or later. Windows is #1. Linux is #2. Linux does it right. Sometimes, you're in the middle of something, and delaying makes sense. But shutting down on a 3d print job, or in the middle of a ga…

To point out the obvious: run auto-update before doing the "crucial thing" and that won't occur. Or pay for the non-consumer oriented editions of Windows that allow full administrative control; they exist. Anybody who could not figure that out is probably not capable of managing Linux properly either.

If a thing sucks, or even merely has some little blemish, the fault is in the thing, and it's entirely fair and rational to say so.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#256

Post by disqard »

bhewes wrote: post #145
rincebrain wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, among people under 25, a lot of them see "the phone" as the computer, and treat using desktops as a burden any time it happens.

This i find fun to watch as they sit down at a desktop and co work together through the desktop interface.

Can you share any anecdotes, or some more details? I've been watching this "app generation", and I've read Prensky's nonsense about "digital natives", so I'm always interested in concrete examples of how it's playing out. Thanks!

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#257

Post by disqard »

Swizec wrote: post #58
pdimitar wrote: post #28

Microsoft has been driving users away for no less than 10 years now and nothing much is changing IMO because Windows is what most people think of as "the computer". Non-technical users think they have no other choice, they shrug the defects off and try to get their job done. Though the article kind of piqued my interest by claiming that Microsoft "is in panic" -- any proof that they are indeed bleeding users more tha…

> any proof that they are indeed bleeding users more than what is deemed normal? They are, but not to other OSes. More and more people associate computers with something you use for work (and work provides) or for school (and school provides). All personal computing happens on a phone. My partner, for example, uses her personal laptop about once a year to do taxes. Otherwise it sits in the closet. Even I use an iPad…

> All personal computing happens on a phone

This makes me sad, and is scary, etc. However, putting emotions aside, can we extrapolate from this? Could the next "killer app" actually be an even tinier device? A smartwatch? Or have we reached a local extremum (phones)? And what does that say about attempts to regress towards larger screens (AR/VR headsets)?

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#258

Post by soraminazuki »

hypothesis wrote: post #37
doawoo wrote: post #7

I really agree with this article- I used Windows as my primary OS (not counting work machines) until about 2 years ago, the mess of non coherent design and CONSTANTLY resetting my user preferences every update (like shoving new buttons [see: ads] onto my taskbar) ultimately lead me to buying the first m1 mbp as my new personal machine. Never looked back. I only boot up windows for occasional games now, and even then,…

> CONSTANTLY resetting my user preferences every update (like shoving new buttons [see: ads] onto my taskbar) ultimately lead me to buying the first m1 mbp as my new personal machine. Boy are you going to be disappointed when you discover that settings reset quite aggressively, especially in cases where Apple really thinks it knows better. Want to keep bluetooth off? Both iPhone and macs will not abide. Want to keep…

Let's keep this factual.

> Want to keep bluetooth off? Both iPhone and macs will not abide.

To turn off Bluetooth, go to settings, select Bluetooth, and turn the toggle off. It will abide.

> Nah, they will be automatically migrated to cloud keychain on next upgrade.

I never even heard of this happening despite having used Macs for over a decade.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#259

Post by kentt »

rr808 wrote: post #16

DHH today on how windows is just as good as Apple now. https://world.hey.com/dhh/vscode-wsl-makes-windows-awesome-f... (OK he hates Apple so is pushing an alternative but a good POV)

> (OK he hates Apple so is pushing an alternative but a good POV)

Seem like an odd take. In the article he does say that he still uses it as a daily driver. He can't hate it that much.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#260

Post by hypothesis »

soraminazuki wrote: post #258
hypothesis wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CONSTANTLY resetting my user preferences every update (like shoving new buttons [see: ads] onto my taskbar) ultimately lead me to buying the first m1 mbp as my new personal machine. Boy are you going to be disappointed when you discover that settings reset quite aggressively, especially in cases where Apple really thinks it knows better. Want to keep bluetooth off? Both iPhone and macs will not abide. Want to keep…

Let's keep this factual. > Want to keep bluetooth off? Both iPhone and macs will not abide. To turn off Bluetooth, go to settings, select Bluetooth, and turn the toggle off. It will abide. > Nah, they will be automatically migrated to cloud keychain on next upgrade. I never even heard of this happening despite having used Macs for over a decade.

> Let's keep this factual.

I will give you benefit of the doubt that you personally never had them, but both are factual based on my experience.

If you are interested you should be able find previous HN threads with same exact symptoms from other people.

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