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Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

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Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#51
post #22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Net neutrality should be built into the fabric of the Internet through better technology - legislation clearly isn't working." There was a lot of coverage about some kind of mesh network being developed in response to SOPA (reddit related?). Is it still going strong?

You might be thinking of this http://www.reddit.com/r/darknetplan/ . I don't think it's ever gotten off the ground and is still people talking about it online.

The FNF has made more progress, but still fairly bogged down in organizational busywork. http://www.freenetworkmovement.org/commons/index.php?title=F...

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#52
In the broadest sense, net neutrality's an abrogation of companies' rights to set terms for their products and allow consumers to agree or disagree. It limits the pricing and service dynamic.

Specifically for the net, it's a concession that we need gov't to wield the ultimate authority over detailed aspects of the Internet and step into many disputes between private parties if the specter of non-neutrality is raised (and of course it will be). You might think it's in your immediate favor, but voting for net neutrality isn't really voting for equal packet treatment: it's voting for government control over packet treatment, which will be turned against you in ways you haven't foreseen.

Net neutrality is like saying I can't open a store w/out handicap access, even though handicapped folks have the option of a) passing by my store to another; or b) finding a way to shop at mine because it's closer and has lower prices. "Shop neutrality" would dictate that if I won't treat everyone equally - although it's clear in my terms - I just shouldn't exist. There are those who agree with this analogy, too, of course.

You suppose the government should be the ultimate arbiter of what options should be on offer, rather than the entrepreneur and the market of free people? A dangerous way to look at it, I think.

No, the telecoms aren't by any stretch unregulated as it is. But if that's your complaint, tackle it from that direction, not by badly regulating bad regulations.

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#53

In the broadest sense, net neutrality's an abrogation of companies' rights to set terms for their products and allow consumers to agree or disagree. It limits the pricing and service dynamic. Specifically for the net, it's a concession that we need gov't to wield the ultimate authority over detailed aspects of the Internet and step into many disputes between private parties if the specter of non-neutrality is raised…

It's not regulation that causes there to be few choices among telecoms. It's the extremely high barrier to entry which is created by numerous factors, many natural.

Personally I sorta agree with you though, that I would rather have regulations that seek to break down the barriers to entry. For instance, require telcom companies to connect homes to a fiber network for a flat connection/service fee, and then allow any ISP to sell those customers internet access.

This is functionally like the network we had during the dial-up days. And the result was thousands of ISPs giving the typical customer dozens of choices. There was no need for government or anyone else to protect network neutrality because the market was functional, as is demonstrated by AOL finding it increasingly necessary to dismantle their walled-garden service to compete with the independent guys.

There were some halfhearted attempts to give ISPs access to the COs to offer DSL service beside the local telcom, but telcoms have been successful in sabotaging it.

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#54
post #53

In the broadest sense, net neutrality's an abrogation of companies' rights to set terms for their products and allow consumers to agree or disagree. It limits the pricing and service dynamic. Specifically for the net, it's a concession that we need gov't to wield the ultimate authority over detailed aspects of the Internet and step into many disputes between private parties if the specter of non-neutrality is raised…

It's not regulation that causes there to be few choices among telecoms. It's the extremely high barrier to entry which is created by numerous factors, many natural. Personally I sorta agree with you though, that I would rather have regulations that seek to break down the barriers to entry. For instance, require telcom companies to connect homes to a fiber network for a flat connection/service fee, and then allow any…

The infrastructural barriers to entry are nontrivial, to be sure.

Further restrictions -- for example, kneecapping pricing structures that companies can use to differentiate themselves -- will only exacerbate that, though.

Another thought is that with the right market dynamic, I have more variety than it seems at first blush: cable, DSL, fiber, dial-up, satellite, WiMax, 3G, power lines, and possibly others. There's a variegation of technical specialty there that lends itself to horizontal competition by many companies. For heavy usage, several of these are currently poor... but looking at our present options and determining that only cable and fiber matter, for instance, is selling innovation short. It's surprising what can crop up out of nowhere when someone sees an unexploited opportunity.

The reason there hasn't been a mass flight from the standard telcos yet, I think, is that packet profiling has largely taken the form of capping torrents for heavy users, which is a small minority of the market -- and they're arguably being capped for the benefit of the majority. If the telcos make a gamble on harming access or speeds for the majority, there will be a scramble for alternatives, and they will present themselves.

Legislation is too often proposed with the deeply flawed assumption of an inelastic economic model.

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#55
post #45
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net neutrality may be a solution in the U.S. where monopolies are a bigger issue and where you don't have much choice in regards to your net provider depending on location. Actually, 98% of US zipcodes have 2+ broadband providers, and 88% of US zipcodes have 4+ broadband providers. This is from the FCC's own data and excludes 4G providers, which are popping up like crazy (I'm posting this via a Clear mifi device for…

That includes things that are clearly not broadband, like satellite and "3G" that has a 2GB cap. Very few homes have access to more than 2 "real" broadband providers (your choices are the cable company or the telephone company, period.)

From the report: "The terms “high-speed connections” and “broadband connections” are synonyms in this report" and defines them as 200kbps+.

We could let this devolve into a semantic argument about "broadband," "real broadband," etc. but what would be the point?

My point is that according to that 2008 FCC report, 99.7% of US zipcodes have a choice of 200kbps+ internet provider, and most have even better. This doesn't include any of the networks that have been built out since 2008, like the 4G 6Mbps network I'm using right now.

It's simply not true that "very few homes" only have high-speed internet through a cable or telephone company.

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how long telcos thought they could get away with charging so much for SMS ( http://www.nickloper.com/2011/02/how-much-does-a-text-messag... ) but now that things have changed it looks as though they thought they had other ways of making incredible profits from message transmission. Ha!

The problem is, the money still has to come from somewhere. When income drops in one area (SMS), and costs do not go down, they'll likely have to increase pricing in another area.

The issue is that demand to SMS is pretty inflexible, whereas demand for wherever the cost is really coming from probably is not.

The Telcos are using SMS money to subsidize more expensive parts of the business that people will probably opt out of if they were charged the full amount.

I don't know enough to say what those are, but you're right, the SMS money probably isn't all profit. Right-pricing SMS will probably mean that some other part of the business would be cut back (unfortunately R&D is often a victim).

When the current shareholders are pitted against the future shareholders, the future shareholders often lose.

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how long telcos thought they could get away with charging so much for SMS ( http://www.nickloper.com/2011/02/how-much-does-a-text-messag... ) but now that things have changed it looks as though they thought they had other ways of making incredible profits from message transmission. Ha!

The problem is, the money still has to come from somewhere. When income drops in one area (SMS), and costs do not go down, they'll likely have to increase pricing in another area.

[deleted]

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding, and what I mean by Net Neutrality is that ISPs should treat packets that I access equally. This does not prevent ISPs from providing tiered services or instituting network caps. For example, if I get a plan that promises: 1) 5 mbs download 2) 1 mbs upload 3) 15 GB usage cap The ISP is well within it's rights to provide me with such a slow connection, as long as the packets I access on that slower co…

Thanks for making that a bit clearer to me. I'm still confused why/if an ISP shouldn't be able to go further with offering me a "Non-You-Tube/Grooveshark-Plan" if it would be cheaper. I guess one critical point is that my data packages should not be looked into for privacy issues. But considering your mentioned plan: You could be rewarded for not using the 5mbs bandwith constantly. So instead of looking into the data…

That's right, penalizing heavy users is not against net neutrality, although depending on how a company goes about doing this it could yield some pretty bad PR (see: AT&T throttling of users that have Unlimited plans).

As to why an ISP should not be able to go further with offering you a "Non-You-Tube/Grooveshark-Plan", that is actually the main thing that Net Neutrality was created to stop. ISPs filtering traffic and access to websites based on content.

The greatest fear that proponents of Net Neutrality have is that ISPs will begin walling off the Internet and restricting access to sites in an effort to increase profits.

Currently, the internet is the closest thing that society has to pure competition and freedom of expression.

Imagine if when Facebook first started, MySpace had spent millions paying ISPs to slow down all traffic to Facebook.com, they would have effectively killed it.

Or imagine if a rich billionaire on the Right (or the Left) did not like what a certain website was saying about him and/or his ideology, he would be able to pay ISPs to slow down all traffic to those sites (thus providing a chilling effect on free speech and expression).

And anyway, if your aim is to reduce the cost of an internet connection, the best thing to do would be to increase competition among ISPs. Without competition, even if the costs of ISPs go down, they have no incentive to decrease prices (unless doing so could increase their bottom line), in fact, they may even increase prices if the choice to consumers is either pay more for internet or have NO internet at all.

A large problem with the high cost of the Internet is that many ISPs either through the government become the only company that can legally provide Internet service in an area (government supported monopoly), OR like it is where I live (Montreal, Canada) there is a small number of ISPs and they have carved out regions that they have decided NOT to compete.

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#59
post #55
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That includes things that are clearly not broadband, like satellite and "3G" that has a 2GB cap. Very few homes have access to more than 2 "real" broadband providers (your choices are the cable company or the telephone company, period.)

From the report: "The terms “high-speed connections” and “broadband connections” are synonyms in this report" and defines them as 200kbps+. We could let this devolve into a semantic argument about "broadband," "real broadband," etc. but what would be the point? My point is that according to that 2008 FCC report, 99.7% of US zipcodes have a choice of 200kbps+ internet provider, and most have even better. This doesn't…

The FCC's idea that 200kbps is "broadband" is bullshit. A hard drive fedexed across-country overnight is "broadband" by that definition, but the latency makes it pretty unpalatable, don't you think?

Re: Netherlands first country in Europe with net neutrality

#60
post #59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the report: "The terms “high-speed connections” and “broadband connections” are synonyms in this report" and defines them as 200kbps+. We could let this devolve into a semantic argument about "broadband," "real broadband," etc. but what would be the point? My point is that according to that 2008 FCC report, 99.7% of US zipcodes have a choice of 200kbps+ internet provider, and most have even better. This doesn't…

The FCC's idea that 200kbps is "broadband" is bullshit. A hard drive fedexed across-country overnight is "broadband" by that definition, but the latency makes it pretty unpalatable, don't you think?

No idea what you're getting at. Are monopolistic internet providers about to slam us all with 48 hour round trip times? Unless we let the FCC (which doesn't have a clue about what it's regulating, according to you) enforce net neutrality?
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