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Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

maartenboudry.be

61–70 of 136 posts

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#61
I heavily disagree.

It does have good arguments, but I think the reasoning take in account only a part of the problem, which lead to a wrong conclusion.

From my understanding, the statement is: Overpopulation is not a problem, it's the solution, because statistically we have more smart young people that improve and optimize resources available through discovery, reducing its impact on the environment (climate included).

It throw some arguments and datas:

- If we’d gone on as 1950[s] organic farmers, we’d have needed 82 percent of the world’s land area for cultivation, as opposed to the 38 percent that we farm at the moment.”

- resources are becoming more abundant and cheaper as the world population grows

- Especially since the Industrial Revolution, humans have been drastically shrinking their cropland use per capita, and there is no reason to believe this progress can’t continue.

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On this later arguments, it falacious as cropland increased A LOT since industrial revolution.https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/land-use-over-the-long-te...

Also, from the same source, it seems that optimization of land is not moving a lot since a decade or two.

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But then, to make all of this viable, because the author know about climate change, he make a very brave, optimistic at best irrealistic at worse, asumption:

- With clean energy technologies, we can completely decouple material well-being from CO2 emissions, for the first time in history.

This single assumption make its whole arguments vanish. It's the only argument that is not scientific, yet so important in its theory.

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And never ever he is talking about the environmental debt that allowed this productivity progress, that don't show up in the graphics he use. It only talks about short terms, not long term. Only about science, not about economy. Economy that is really linked to productivity and consumption, and debt. It avoid to talk about tipping point where things fall apart. It avoid the role of oil and gas in the productivity.

Author should read the story of the [hen that laid the golden eggs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hen_That_Laid_the_Golden_E...): the production methods are killing the chicken, soon we'll not have golden eggs anymore.

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#63

This article is brainless and attempts to make no argument other than "The more people there are, the more solutions to problems will be found" which hasn't happened yet despite massive population growth over the last 75 years. This kind of low quality content seems pervasive here lately. I can only presume it's the result of a generally lower quality of participant here lately.

So no productivity gains or increases to the standard of living since 1949? How about an even more basic set of premises: Do you believe that greater specialization leads to increased productivity? Is there a correlation between specialization and the size of the labor pool? Why is it that we develop software products and buy bread from bakeries? Why not own tractor, maintain a tractor, apply fertilizer, till acreage…

Your examples are not very good.

As a software developer, I have stopped buying bread from bakeries many years ago, because I no longer like the bread made by modern industrial methods.

Now I make every morning a bread for myself, kneading the dough and baking it (in a microwave oven, where baking is much faster and more reproducible than in a traditional oven).

I would like to also mill the wheat seeds into flour, but I do not have a suitable electric mill. Nevertheless, I mill other plant seeds that I use in much smaller quantities, e.g. poppy seeds, from which I bake a sponge cake.

Anything that you can do yourself at home independently of others will always provide better results than anything that you can purchase.

I agree that there is a correlation between specialization and the size of the labor pool, but even in a small country with a few million humans the size of the labor pool is enough to cover all specialities.

The reasons why various industries are now missing from most small countries (even if they frequently have existed there earlier) have nothing to do with the size of their labor pool. An explanation of those reasons would need a much ampler space.

If I compare my standard of living with that of my grandfather before WWII, there are no real improvements, except that now I am able to do myself a lot of work that he did not do, but my grandmother did for him.

Because now I cook everything with a microwave oven, I can spend very little time with cooking in comparison with my grandmother. The same by using a programmable washing machine for clothes and a vacuum cleaner instead of brooms.

So the progress in living standard is only that I no longer need an unemployed spouse or a servant to do the housework, which is good, because unlike my grandfather I could not afford to support adequately a second person from my salary.

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no productivity gains or increases to the standard of living since 1949? How about an even more basic set of premises: Do you believe that greater specialization leads to increased productivity? Is there a correlation between specialization and the size of the labor pool? Why is it that we develop software products and buy bread from bakeries? Why not own tractor, maintain a tractor, apply fertilizer, till acreage…

Your examples are not very good. As a software developer, I have stopped buying bread from bakeries many years ago, because I no longer like the bread made by modern industrial methods. Now I make every morning a bread for myself, kneading the dough and baking it (in a microwave oven, where baking is much faster and more reproducible than in a traditional oven). I would like to also mill the wheat seeds into flour, b…

Perhaps in a larger urban center the bread you prefer would be available in a specialty bakery.

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#66

Yes yes, more people means more progress which means line goes up which means we will all live in a utopia or something like that. That's why everyone is trying to escape their country and conduct a huge trek to reach countries like uhh India, China and so on and so forth.

> more people means more progress

Is that really the case? Isn't it more a matter of experience that some countries or even continents show impressive population growth and at the same time are pretty resistant to progress? Isn't it rather the case that even in the so-called developed countries only a small part of the population is responsible for technological progress? And do the exceptional geniuses (such as Einstein), to whom we owe a considerable part of progress, really come from areas with larger populations?

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#67
post #5

"The more people there are, the more solutions to problems will be found." Has not been true so far, I wonder at what population amount, will this start working ?

"Lack of people and manpower will create new challenges which will lead to innovation and efficiency" you can also say that.

There are too many variables here and we the typescript and django developers with fancy command prompts better stay quiet.

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#68
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still talking about it in both articles on the frontpage including this shitty one. wtf is wrong with you all telling me to read the article without reading it yourself?

They mention climate change, the article isn't about climate change. There is nothing in there about population control. I think you read the first paragraph, got outraged and commented angrily.

No, it's just that they are more correlated than your now-deleted "if we just go nuclear it's all going to be fine" fever dream comment.

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#69
post #42
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of my acquaintances simply cannot afford the costs of multiple children. I can't speak for your friends. But I think that when someone says "can't afford" what they really mean is "I'd rather spend that money on something else". Some people literally can't afford children. But those in the middle class (or better) in the US certainly can . It would just take money away from other parts of their lifestyle: the…

Perhaps your argument is correct. And my use of afford is unjustified. However, if parents have a certain lifestyle they want to make possible for their children like: paying for daycare/aftercare so your spouse can keep their career, helping pay for college, having sufficient retirement to not burden them, etc the costs are clearly becoming untenable for middle class families.

I think that is fair.

I don't know if it is "rational" (for some sense of that word): kids will excel if they are, simply, loved. Sure, going to great schools is nice. But having a supportive home is way more important than those expensive things.

Re: Forget about overpopulation, soon there will be too few humans

#70
From my (limited) understanding, scientific progress roughly derives from human-years put in.

Some scientific / technological advance takes X human-years to achieve. Low-hanging fruit like Newton's laws or the printing press took a few human years. Nuclear fusion or landing a rover on Mars, takes many more.

Note this is a drastic simplified view of how science progresses in real life.

Large population: yes, advances can be quicker. But it still takes time to run experiments, have discoveries filter down in scientific community, and new tech to get built, tested & deployed at scale. In the meanwhile, people will live (and thus, consume resources) like they're used to.

Small population: roughly same # of human-years required to achieve a similar state of science & technology. But with population consuming resources at a lower rate, there's more time for new tech to be applied.

This reminds me of the behaviour of an electronic amplifier circuit: with fast-enough responding circuit (or slow-enough changing input), output signal closely tracks the input (the "small population" case).

With too-slow responding circuit (too long delay, damping not appropriate etc), output does NOT track input well and makes wild swings: over- and undershoot (the "large population" case).

Humanity's case looks much like the latter.

So: yes, I understand author's argument. But all in all, I doubt the "large population" is a net benefit long-term. Aren't we seeing various types of planet-wide over- and undershoot right now?

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