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Selfish reasons to want more humans

rootsofprogress.org

81–90 of 480 posts

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#81

> and there are basically no major examples of catastrophic resource shortages in the industrial age is this really true? there were tons of supply-line problems during covid for example I feel like to make this point you would have to define "catastrophic" and "resource" and "shortage" extremely narrowly.

I don't think something like what happened due to COVID is related to that. That was a matter of poor logistics, not of scarcity of resources.

I believe the author is talking about things like "we need lots of mineral foobar to sustain us, and at our current population growth, we'll run out in five years!" ---> "oh neat, we can substitute mineral barbaz, plus a little cheap processing, and we have enough to last us thousands of years".

In this case, "resource" is defined more as "raw materials that we can feasibly and economically access". Being unable to meet demand for computer chips because your global supply chain suffered a shock isn't the same thing.

A concrete example of how we've overcome the possibility of a catastrophic resource shortage is advances in drilling and mining. Oil and natural gas reserves that were not feasible to pump out of the ground 50 years ago are now being harvested. The claims of "peak oil" turned out to be irrelevant; we have plenty, and as we "run low", we go after reserves that are harder to get to.

And this process continues: even if it weren't a good idea to stop burning oil and natgas for climate-change reasons, sure, eventually those wells will run dry, or harvesting will become so expensive that it no one would be able to afford to drive their cars or heat their homes anymore. So instead we develop and refine technologies (solar and wind farms, more and more efficient heat pumps, EVs, etc.) that change the game entirely. (Still waiting on Mr. Fusion, though.)

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#82
post #50

There has not been a single country so far whose GDP and overall wellness decreased with increase in population.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

I don't see how a famine due to bad policy is relavant here.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#83
What strikes me about this recent wave of pro-natalism is how banal and devoid of serious argument it is.

Just to mention a few things, any ethical system of a mature civilization should have something to say about the entire biosphere, not just homo sapiens. The article doesn't lose a word on the fate of any other species on this planet, and I don't know how one can even have this discussion without recognizing that we're only one of the many inhabitants here. If you're going to propose an entire world view based on some superficial notion of self-interest you can justify anything.

For a worldview that leans so heavily into utilitarianism it's very odd to ignore most sentient life on earth. I invite the author to visit a large scale factory farm to see the "technological progress" in action that sustains 8 billion people and then to ponder how that squares with his own supposed standard for ethical progress.

Second point is this naive Steve Pinker-esque belief in "progress" to begin with. If you're going to argue that "more geniuses" and "more ethnic restaurants" constitute some deep and authentic moral progress for human civilization you have your work cut out for you, most people on the planet don't share that value system, and it's not obvious that anyone should buy into it without justification. It's almost naive to the point of being tautological, where "progress" is when more people do more things, and therefore having more progress is having more people.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#84
post #26

The problem is that infrastructure doesn't scale nearly as quickly as birth rates, let alone immigration. Cities are getting overcrowded, and many, many attempts by many different countries have proven the difficulty of bootstrapping new cities in the middle of otherwise economically underperforming land, like agricultural fields or even desert. Pretty much every existing major city is bursting at the seams: insuffic…

The limitations on building infrastructure are artificially imposed by NIMBYs. We have the technological ability to quickly build large amounts of housing and other infrastructure and we used to do so before we let the NIMBYs grind everything to a halt over the past few decades. Not only are cities in America not overcrowded, almost all of them are extremely low density sprawl. There is like 1 city in America with a…

> low density sprawl

Hypothetically more of these cities could start to build out subway, light rail, heavy rail networks; which would support higher density. But American cities don't seem to be capable of that. Maybe it's a lack of money, maybe a lack of political will, maybe it's American car culture. But it's irrelevant. It takes a really long time to build out that infrastructure, and in the meantime, the city has the infrastructure that it has, which is insufficient for keeping both housing costs and commuting times down.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#85
More geniuses — there are plenty of talented "brains" that simply never get a chance due to malnutrition, disease, lack of education and opportunity. We'd have far more of them if we could provide a higher minimum standard of living throughout the entire world.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#86

>A bigger world is better for everyone Current world isn't good enough for everyone.

Yep, maybe we should focus on fixing that first.

But I'm somewhat sympathetic to this argument. While there are certainly more people in absolute numbers living in poverty than there were 2000 years ago, the percentage of people in bad shape is probably lower. And many versions of "bad shape" today is probably still a lot better than the average at many points in history.

That leads to a philosophical argument, though: is it better to have more people, with a higher proportion that are happy and doing well, or to have fewer people, with a higher proportion that hare unhappy and doing poorly, if in the second case, the absolute number of people in bad shape is fewer? I think it's reasonable to disagree on which is better; there's no objective truth there.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#87
post #76
post #22

More ambitious projects need a certain critical mass of resources behind them. Ancient Egyptian civilization built a large irrigation system to make the best use of the Nile floodwaters for agriculture, a feat that would not have been possible to a small tribe or chiefdom. This doesn't mean people, we're no longer bound by labour intensive solutions. I live in a single state with a tiny population that mines and ship…

And where are those mining machines that allow this to occur manufactured? How about all the components of the mining machines? The locomotives that take all that iron ore to port? The port infrastructure? The ships that transport the ore to its overseas customers? WA and its mining wealth and efficiency wouldn't exist without a global market for both its supply and demand.

Look at all the people involved in machine manufacture, transport, mining, etc. for sure.

The point being made is that more and more tonnes of raw material are being shipped to smelters per person than ever before.

Automation is still advancing so this will only increase, automation is also advancing in processing and production - we no longer need vast numbers of people to produce a billion tonnes of steel, and the number currently required is still falling.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#88

The author’s third point, “More progress’, is what I find the most compelling. We tend to think of ourselves living in a techno utopia, but in my view we are barely out of the dark ages. Disease and poverty still run rampant and our lives are frustratingly short. There are people personally close to me that live in chronic pain; there are healthy people in their 20s that die from cancer; our understanding of biology…

We have many more potentially talented people already, than we either develop or employ.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#89

There has not been a single country so far whose GDP and overall wellness decreased with increase in population.

Black Death.

cheap labour -> throw more people at old sol'ns -> stagnation

dear labour -> find new, more productive sol'ns -> progress

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#90
post #26

The problem is that infrastructure doesn't scale nearly as quickly as birth rates, let alone immigration. Cities are getting overcrowded, and many, many attempts by many different countries have proven the difficulty of bootstrapping new cities in the middle of otherwise economically underperforming land, like agricultural fields or even desert. Pretty much every existing major city is bursting at the seams: insuffic…

> Pretty much every existing major city is bursting at the seams: insufficient housing, insufficient transportation infrastructure, insufficient utility infrastructure.

Definitely a problem in Canada, but fortunately our government seemingly follows OP's ridiculous logic, and plans to continue increasing our population by 1.3% every year, via an aggressive immigration push. Never mind ensuring we have housing for them or anything.

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