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Selfish reasons to want more humans

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Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#71

Post by toomuchtodo »

Affric wrote: post #66
toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Not selfish enough, sorry. Empower the human, regardless of total fertility rate decline trajectory (~40% of global annual pregnancies are unintended; assuming reproductive wishes are affirmed [less or no children], extrapolate future total fertility rate accordingly [points down]). > bigger societies are better for everyone. This does not appear to be the case based on the evidence. Bigger societies are better for t…

You’ve got that there are a lot of unintended pregnancies. You’ve got that there is an impact on the environment by humanity. That does not an argument make as much as the points in TFA.

The argument is that more people is better. The Earth carries 8 billion people today, headed toward 10-11 billion by 2100. Why are there so many people? Unintended pregnancies. Less unintended pregnancies (empowered women, family planning, etc) constrains the pipeline of aggregate suffering (because the evidence is clear we're not going to do anything about it current state; why would we presume something would be done future state?) and human impact (less people = reduced aggregate impact). Fertility rate is falling rapidly everywhere in the world, somewhat slower in Africa, but evidence indicates the decline is locked in.

Atmospheric CO2 budget busted, six out of nine planetary boundaries busted, hundreds of millions of people in extreme poverty, and climate change costs are going to be incredible (mitigation, migration and aid, etc). We Are Here. Someone advocating for more people for the goals TFA puts forth? They are either wildly selfish or wildly ignorant. When talking heads, politicians, or business leaders fret about a compressing population pyramid, they worry about labor costs, GDP, economic indicators, growth, and maintaining a status quo. They are worried that capitalism succeeded due to growth externalities and surplus labor. They don't care about the human, they care about the juice they've been squeezing. The US has constructed society as a human factory farm [1], for example. They don't value humans here today, and they want more?

(please let me know if I have left any gaps in building context up wrt the mental model on this topic, I can provide additional citations for any assertions I've made)

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38583968 | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38583281

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#72

Post by esoterica »

solatic wrote: post #26

The problem is that infrastructure doesn't scale nearly as quickly as birth rates, let alone immigration. Cities are getting overcrowded, and many, many attempts by many different countries have proven the difficulty of bootstrapping new cities in the middle of otherwise economically underperforming land, like agricultural fields or even desert. Pretty much every existing major city is bursting at the seams: insuffic…

The limitations on building infrastructure are artificially imposed by NIMBYs. We have the technological ability to quickly build large amounts of housing and other infrastructure and we used to do so before we let the NIMBYs grind everything to a halt over the past few decades.

Not only are cities in America not overcrowded, almost all of them are extremely low density sprawl. There is like 1 city in America with a respectable level of density. The average American city would be much nicer and much more livable if they quadrupled the number of people living there.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#74

Post by stephc_int13 »

jewelry wrote: post #46
defrost wrote: post #22

More ambitious projects need a certain critical mass of resources behind them. Ancient Egyptian civilization built a large irrigation system to make the best use of the Nile floodwaters for agriculture, a feat that would not have been possible to a small tribe or chiefdom. This doesn't mean people, we're no longer bound by labour intensive solutions. I live in a single state with a tiny population that mines and ship…

intelligence is a lottery at birth, assuming the education system is good enough at identify talents of all kind. and with the world especially Asian countries better at this, I think we do need more human to maintain the current talents pool.

It is not.

There is a part of genetics, like most things, but if you look at past geniuses, there is a common pattern, wealthy enough families able to afford tutors.

Tutoring is what makes geniuses, not lottery.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#75

Post by 2four2 »

solatic wrote: post #26

The problem is that infrastructure doesn't scale nearly as quickly as birth rates, let alone immigration. Cities are getting overcrowded, and many, many attempts by many different countries have proven the difficulty of bootstrapping new cities in the middle of otherwise economically underperforming land, like agricultural fields or even desert. Pretty much every existing major city is bursting at the seams: insuffic…

I'm skeptical that every major existing city is busting at the seams.... What's the metric here? Cities have been crowded for centuries.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#76

Post by ezzaf »

defrost wrote: post #22

More ambitious projects need a certain critical mass of resources behind them. Ancient Egyptian civilization built a large irrigation system to make the best use of the Nile floodwaters for agriculture, a feat that would not have been possible to a small tribe or chiefdom. This doesn't mean people, we're no longer bound by labour intensive solutions. I live in a single state with a tiny population that mines and ship…

And where are those mining machines that allow this to occur manufactured? How about all the components of the mining machines? The locomotives that take all that iron ore to port? The port infrastructure? The ships that transport the ore to its overseas customers?

WA and its mining wealth and efficiency wouldn't exist without a global market for both its supply and demand.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#77

Post by xyzzy4747 »

Depurator wrote: post #15

This is a good example of a very narrow human centric view that captures why its bad to try to maximize for particular made up metrics, such as human utility. It also a wonderfully hare brained view of technolocial innovation that disregards the dark sides, material input, or externalities at all. Is this person an economist or something?

As a human, I have a human-centric mindset. I don’t want to live in the forest with rain filling up my mud floor. I like nice things.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#78

Post by esoterica »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #64
defrost wrote: post #22

More ambitious projects need a certain critical mass of resources behind them. Ancient Egyptian civilization built a large irrigation system to make the best use of the Nile floodwaters for agriculture, a feat that would not have been possible to a small tribe or chiefdom. This doesn't mean people, we're no longer bound by labour intensive solutions. I live in a single state with a tiny population that mines and ship…

The OP also claims that growth is possible indefinitely. But somehow, we need more humans to to have critical resources necessary to execute some projects. The contradiction is lost on the OP author.

There is literally no contradiction there?

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#79

Post by shepherdjerred »

Depurator wrote: post #15

This is a good example of a very narrow human centric view that captures why its bad to try to maximize for particular made up metrics, such as human utility. It also a wonderfully hare brained view of technolocial innovation that disregards the dark sides, material input, or externalities at all. Is this person an economist or something?

A human centric view is not unreasonable.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#80

Post by downWidOutaFite »

If you were serious about this line of argument you would be appalled by the massive waste of potential in today's population, so many wasted brains especially in the "third world", and you would be an advocate for global wealth redistribution, generous welfare, increased spending on education, better nutrition, reduction of pollution that affects health, etc.
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