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Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

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Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#81

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #75
cooper_ganglia wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anthem uncoupled from what it stands for may seem strange, which is why it’s so important to remember the lives of the fathers, brothers, and sons sacrificed at Fort McHenry holding up the flag through the night, and all the lives lost since then holding up the foundations of freedom and our way of life. If you’re living in America enjoying the (ever shrinking) bounty of liberties we have, it’s good and healthy f…

> I think falling away from a national identity hurts everyone. I agree but it’s the basic defect at the heart of America. It’s a country founded by anti-social individualists, replenished by waves and waves of the sort of anti-social people who would leave their kin and move to the other side of the world. Christianity was the only thing keeping the country from declining into pure atomized individualism, and the ho…

From where are you getting this idea that America was founded by "anti-social individualists"? What I was taught is that it was founded by people with immense faith in innate goodness of people and the rightness of governance by the people.

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#82

Post by rayiner »

dylan604 wrote: post #55
mp05 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But ya know, at least we shoehorned religion into our pledge. "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Look I find it way overplayed to the point of losing any meaning, and a lot of people (civilians) assign some deeper meaning to the ceremony than is likely warranted, and probably parti…

But it was shoehorned in. The founding fathers very much did not want the government to be dictated to by religion. They also very much wanted people to be able to practice which ever religion they wanted. This is why there is the concept of separation of church and state with the establishment clause. The pledge itself wasn't even around until the Civil War, and was worded differently than what is used today. There'…

Actually, it’s the “separation of church and state” that’s more analogous to the civil war memorials being a 20th century creation.

“Separation of church and state” isn’t in the Constitution. It was something Jefferson said, but he was not representative of the founding fathers on that point. John Adams, by contrast, said: “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Public schooling was invented in Massachusetts for the purpose of educating kids about religion. Massachusetts had an official state church (the Congregationalist church) until 1824! The “Establishment Clause” says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” That’s not old-timey speak meaning separation of church and state. It literally just says the federal government can’t interfere with the official state churches, which were called “established churches” (and that the federal government couldn’t establish a church itself).

For the first 170 years of the nation’s existence, nobody thought the Establishment Clause meant that state governments could not teach kids religion in state schools. That was invented pretty much out of thin air in the mid-20th century.

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#83

Post by boomboomsubban »

jvanderbot wrote: post #69
mtrower wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, and it may be of personal value to pursue this for yourself. That's different from socially badgering others into it at group events.

I haven't sung a hymn, pledge or anthem since I was 11 or so. I just stand there and watch, be it church, baseball, hockey, whatever. 32 years and nothing bad has happened yet. (Hooray freedom?). I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever.

>I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever.

Then why do you stand? You can get away without singing, but there is an immense amount of pressure on you to "show respect."

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#84

Post by mtrower »

dgfitz wrote: post #67
mtrower wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, and it may be of personal value to pursue this for yourself. That's different from socially badgering others into it at group events.

It’s funny, you’d probably not be able to pop off like that if it weren’t for the dead at Ft. McHenry.

..."pop off"?

I get the impression that you're inferring things about me that aren't actually real. Such as a lack of respect for the fallen.

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#85

Post by boomboomsubban »

dgfitz wrote: post #67
mtrower wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, and it may be of personal value to pursue this for yourself. That's different from socially badgering others into it at group events.

It’s funny, you’d probably not be able to pop off like that if it weren’t for the dead at Ft. McHenry.

Where would we be without those brave dead who fought in a war we started and didn't win? I guess we wouldn't have Florida...

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#86

Post by mtrower »

jvanderbot wrote: post #79
mtrower wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in other words, you disagree with the post I'm replying to? > I don't believe there is any pressure whatsoever. You've clearly not been to some of the events that I have. Also, there's the whole matter of various public school systems. Regardless, if there hasn't been any pressure for you, then this is sort of a non-sequitur, as my comment is talking about situations where there is pressure to begin with. Non-pres…

> You've clearly not been to some of the events that I have. Ok, such as? > Non-pressure situations are out of scope. I am attempting to say this with respect, believe me: I am saying the pressure is not real. At least in my experience, it's not worth your time. I respect that you may have a different situation than I do, and you may experience pressure of this type differently than I do, but "pressure" strikes me as…

> socially badgering

> pressure is not real.

> real consequences that I'm aware of (as in legal, regulatory, etc)

So if I understand correctly, the argument is that social pressure isn't real pressure and can be dismissed as inconsequential? If that's the case, then yeah, I think this is played out and we can call it here.

(Not because I strongly agree or disagree with such a notion, I just kind of think it would be getting off into the weeds a bit much to continue at that point.)

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#87

Post by romafirst3 »

cooper_ganglia wrote: post #32
dylan604 wrote: post #14

Trevor Noah has a bit about how 'muricans are the only ones that sing the national anthem all the damn time. He adds how it's also the only anthem where it is sung differently each time depending on the performer. Personally, I have always felt very strange in the entire concept of having to sing this at various events or in school as well as the pledging of allegiance. It just feels very cultish or something you'd e…

The anthem uncoupled from what it stands for may seem strange, which is why it’s so important to remember the lives of the fathers, brothers, and sons sacrificed at Fort McHenry holding up the flag through the night, and all the lives lost since then holding up the foundations of freedom and our way of life. If you’re living in America enjoying the (ever shrinking) bounty of liberties we have, it’s good and healthy f…

Don’t you guys also do a pledge of allegiance and other weird stuff?

Also, in most every other country, the national anthem is only ever sung when the country is playing an outside country not for internal competition.

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#88

Post by cameronh90 »

kweingar wrote: post #49
Zelphyr wrote: post #46

The vocal gymnastics of these people who perform The Star Spangled Banner have, in my opinion, made it intolerable to hear anymore. I really wish for once someone would sing it without adding all the notes in the scale to it.

Even the plain notes of The Star-Spangled Banner are ostentatious, occupying over an octave and a half. The song lends itself to soloists rather than collective singing. I would go further and ask for changing the national anthem to a song that anyone can sing. God Save the King is a good example of what a country should go for.

If God Save the King is what you’re after, just go for My Country ‘tis of Thee. Same melody but with added freedom, and as a bonus it was used as a national anthem historically.

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#89

Post by labster »

romafirst3 wrote: post #87
cooper_ganglia wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anthem uncoupled from what it stands for may seem strange, which is why it’s so important to remember the lives of the fathers, brothers, and sons sacrificed at Fort McHenry holding up the flag through the night, and all the lives lost since then holding up the foundations of freedom and our way of life. If you’re living in America enjoying the (ever shrinking) bounty of liberties we have, it’s good and healthy f…

Don’t you guys also do a pledge of allegiance and other weird stuff? Also, in most every other country, the national anthem is only ever sung when the country is playing an outside country not for internal competition.

Yes we do a pledge of allegiance every day at school, and many government meetings and social club meetings.

A lot of that stuff is early adopter weirdness. You see, other nation states have things like a historical culture or common language to unite them, but the US had to invent a national identity out of whole cloth when no other nation was doing nationalism yet. We need rituals to affirm that we are the members of the in-group.

Re: Quantifying the diva-ness of national anthem performances

#90

Post by reaperman »

tptacek wrote: post #78
rayiner wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought we fought a war because we didn’t want to free our slaves?

That's not what I was taught. Is it what you were taught?

For the civil war, yes. But that doesn't seem like the most relevant war to the national anthem or pledge of allegiance.
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