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V Language Review (2023)

n-skvortsov-1997.github.io

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Re: V Language Review (2023)

#61
post #58
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

From the article: > Everything described here is correct for the b66447cf11318d5499bd2d797b97b0b3d98c3063 commit. This is a summary of my experience with the language over 6 months + information that I found on Discord while I was writing this article. From https://github.com/vlang/v/commit/b66447cf11318d5499bd2d797b... : > felipensp committed Nov 20, 2023 Can you clarify how you're calculating 2 years? Today is Febr…

I'm guessing they didn't look at the article and assumed it was the older one. There is a similar one from two years ago: https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#62
Can someone explain the backstory of what V is and why someone took the time to write this? To the uninitiated this sounds like someone criticizing some kid’s side project.

I’m picking up some context clues that V is widely used / famous / notable / significant somehow, but the only time I have ever heard of it before this is Xe Iaso’s similarly negative posts. Did V receive some huge funding grant that made it the target of ire? Is the author otherwise well-known? What am I missing?

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#63
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this perspective, in theory. Not liking how something is implemented is different than suggesting it isn't implemented. The real damning aspect of this is that criticism surrounding these decisions seems to result in the silencing of the critic. There are times where moderation and banning are necessary, such as when the critic resorts to name calling or trolling. Criticism can lead to more awareness whi…

I've seen this play out a few times now in a few different communities: systemd, Gnome/GTK, wider JavaScript and PHP communities, and probably some others. There is legitimate reasonable criticism of these things, even today. However, they have also been subject to profoundly unreasonable – even unhinged – criticism, and this has created a rather unhealthy dynamic where both reasonable and unreasonable criticism are…

I would argue that at least some of the grief GNOME gets is deserved. Especially given their attitude towards their users.

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#64
post #61
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Everything described here is correct for the b66447cf11318d5499bd2d797b97b0b3d98c3063 commit. This is a summary of my experience with the language over 6 months + information that I found on Discord while I was writing this article. From https://github.com/vlang/v/commit/b66447cf11318d5499bd2d797b... : > felipensp committed Nov 20, 2023 Can you clarify how you're calculating 2 years? Today is Febr…

I'm guessing they didn't look at the article and assumed it was the older one. There is a similar one from two years ago: https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html

Seems like a kind of strong reaction to accuse someone of spreading misinformation without even checking the link...

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#65

Can someone explain the backstory of what V is and why someone took the time to write this? To the uninitiated this sounds like someone criticizing some kid’s side project. I’m picking up some context clues that V is widely used / famous / notable / significant somehow, but the only time I have ever heard of it before this is Xe Iaso’s similarly negative posts. Did V receive some huge funding grant that made it the t…

There is a summary at the top of this post from 2019:

https://andrewkelley.me/post/why-donating-to-musl-libc-proje...

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#66
post #63
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this play out a few times now in a few different communities: systemd, Gnome/GTK, wider JavaScript and PHP communities, and probably some others. There is legitimate reasonable criticism of these things, even today. However, they have also been subject to profoundly unreasonable – even unhinged – criticism, and this has created a rather unhealthy dynamic where both reasonable and unreasonable criticism are…

I would argue that at least some of the grief GNOME gets is deserved. Especially given their attitude towards their users.

As I said, some grief is deserved in all these cases. But unreasonable criticism makes people also not listen to more reasonable (deserved) criticism. That was my entire point.

That you're completely ignoring this and instead just reply with an unsubstantial and off-topic dig at gnome is an excellent demonstration of my point.

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#67
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The V devs have promised a lot, have missed a lot but have also achieved a lot. I have written a few short programs in V. IMHO, the V syntax is concise and intuitive and the performance is good. It is lightweight and easy to install and to use. The blog post is probably right that V has many rough edges but I would say the core features in V are well planned. I actually prefer it over some other more popular language…

Yeah, when the article skipped over the first two memory management strategies to point out issues with manual memory management and an "automatic" strategy that is unfinished or broken, it really struck me that it's quite impressive for a single author to have a functional, fast language with a working garbage collector and arena allocator (with some issues) in only a few years. The criticisms in the article, which…

The problems with V has always been that its marketing is full of lies and its main selling points don't work as advertised. The same source code, but without the deception, might very well be an alright language.

Just like how healing crystals are perfectly fine if what you want is decoration and you think they look pretty. It doesn't make the deceptive marketing okay.

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#68

Thank you for this. Saved me a lot of time and hassle - definietly steering clear of V land. A similar review for Nim would be of interest to me. Should not be that bad I‘d hope.

I've written a few projects in Nim. Unfortunately there seems to be a big "civil war" happening right now in Nim land where it's the creator vs big-names going at it for some reason. Can't remember. Like if Chris McCord suddenly started fighting with Jose Valim and Elixir became split right down the middle. I stopped using Nim because I couldn't get over how bad the documentation was. Hard to navigate, hard to find w…

The creator not being able to community manage was why I left Nim - not "forever", but I moved on to other things. The language has some good ideas, but at that time development seemed to be heavily guided by two trolls who hung out in the IRC and complained, every day, about how they would never ever be able to do their projects without this one feature. Eventually I got into it with them and nobody got banned...which, of course, said to me that he was OK with toxicity, so I couldn't be bothered to stay.

That, and a lot of the more advanced features were just broken.

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#69
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The V devs have promised a lot, have missed a lot but have also achieved a lot. I have written a few short programs in V. IMHO, the V syntax is concise and intuitive and the performance is good. It is lightweight and easy to install and to use. The blog post is probably right that V has many rough edges but I would say the core features in V are well planned. I actually prefer it over some other more popular language…

Yeah, when the article skipped over the first two memory management strategies to point out issues with manual memory management and an "automatic" strategy that is unfinished or broken, it really struck me that it's quite impressive for a single author to have a functional, fast language with a working garbage collector and arena allocator (with some issues) in only a few years. The criticisms in the article, which…

> it's quite impressive for a single author to have a functional, fast language with a working garbage collector and arena allocator (with some issues) in only a few years.

As the included code shows, the gc is boehm gc, and checking their repo shows they just include libgc/bdwgc. This is absolutely not a knock against anyone here, it's just about the standard library for this need, and I think it is a far smarter move to use it than for most to attempt to make their own general-purpose gc (though boehm can't catch all leaks).

I feel it would be wrong, however, to characterise this as being a single author having made a language with a gc and arenas, as if those were significant parts of the author's own developments, rather than using a well-picked import and a half-baked implementation of "arenas", which here are really just a global linked list of buffers, freed only at exit, and so everything leaks [0]. They're not really arenas, you can't use them locally in a region of code or as scratchpads, let alone multi-thread it. By their code's own admission, it's just a little pre-allocation to batch mallocs for all the little heap allocations of a GC-assuming codebase, so they're not really arenas like you'd use in C or elsewhere.

Not unimpressive, it's a valid approach for some uses (though not general purpose), it's just different from a language with their own gc and actual arenas. Indeed, just implementing an arena barely even registers in the complexity, I feel, as arenas really should be very simple in most use cases [1]. It would be far more impressive to have them actually integrated and be available as a true alternative to a GC for memory management, particularly integrating common patterns (e.g. [2]) in a way that could serve as a drop-in replacement, such that we can actually provide bounded lifetimes and memory safety without a full GC, let alone support multiple concurrencies with it from multi-threading to coroutines -- this would likely still be unsafe without a GC compared to, say, Rust or Vale, let alone Pony or SPARK, and would likely require a cultural shift in manual management akin to Zig or Odin, as it may be largely moot if dependencies end up enforcing the gc themselves. Still, again, making anything substantial is never unimpressive, we just need to retain the perspective of what was achieved and how.

As to the rest, well, I think it's fair to say that there should be a clear delineation between statements of "we can do this and here's how" and roadmaps with "we're aiming to do these things and here's our current progress". In my experience, people are quick to get these mixed up when they're excited about making something, and none of us are fully immune to this. It's not some moral failing or anything in and of itself, it can very easily be an honest mistake, but humans see patterns everywhere, so we often need to be receptive when others are trying to help us be level-headed and clear things up; otherwise a reputation begins to form. Especially in this industry, reproducibility matters, as we're all too familiar with the smoke-and-mirrors of demos (not to personally claim there is any here, just that it obviously helps dispel such concerns).

And, of course, second chances are always offered if someone is willing to amend mistakes.

[0]: prealloc.c.v is barely over 100 lines long and quite manageable, https://github.com/vlang/v/blob/master/vlib/builtin/prealloc...

[1]: Chris Wellons, "Arena allocator tips and tricks", https://nullprogram.com/blog/2023/09/27/

[2]: Ryan Fleury, "Untangling Lifetimes: The Arena Allocator", https://www.rfleury.com/p/untangling-lifetimes-the-arena-all...

Re: V Language Review (2023)

#70
post #64
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing they didn't look at the article and assumed it was the older one. There is a similar one from two years ago: https://mawfig.github.io/2022/06/18/v-lang-in-2022.html

Seems like a kind of strong reaction to accuse someone of spreading misinformation without even checking the link...

Not defending them, but that would explain why they thought it was 2 years old.
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