Live data from Hacker News

I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

antipope.org

41–50 of 135 posts

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#41
post #29

A startup bubble is the best thing that could possibly happen. Look at it this way. There are plenty of talented engineers, designers, and entrepreneurs out there trying to build the next big thing. Due to the incredible scale and reach of the internet economy, those who succeed will become fabulously wealthy. But most will fail (or at least not reach that scale) due to various circumstances---a misstep in execution,…

It's not about whether third party investment is a good idea, it's about whether the valuations third parties make are reasonable or based on hype. The cost of bubbles is in talent misallocation - could talented people be producing other things of more enduring value?

I don't disagree, but I would suggest that if the "successes" are worth billions upon billions, then even "failures" are quite valuable as well, at whatever point in the processes they are still indistinguishable.

As hard as economic value is to quantify, "enduring value" is even harder. So I won't even attempt to make judgments on that front.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#42
I hope in a way this bubble would burst, I'm getting thoroughly sick of all this web2.0 bullshit. Its nothing but social networks and photo/something sharing sites. Nothing really happening and we need smart Engineers and developers getting back into some worthwhile endeavors. I blame Facebook.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#43
I have a theory about bubbles: It's relatively easy to spot that you're in one, but it's very hard to pinpoint what sort of bubble it is. I'll explain...

During the lead up the 2008 debt crisis I saw a lot of people talking about how house prices had been going up year on year and questioning whether we were in a property bubble. There was a debate though. Demand for housing was strong (partly due to population growth) and it appeared that globalisation had freed up the capital so banks had plenty of money to lend to people to buy houses. So the rising price of property, it was argued, looked like the natural effect of market forces. In hindsight it's easy to see that there was an oversupply of wholesale debt, but at the time I think people assumed that it was just a more efficient distribution of global capital that was opening things up.

Similarly, in the lead up to 1999 people seemed to know that there was too much money floating around. Everyone seemed to be investing in stocks or property and swapping stories of how much they had made. Yes, tech stocks were rising quickly, but so was everything else, and there seemed to be no shortage of investors coming up with money to fund these tech companies so what's the problem.

I think what happens is that people always look at current circumstances in the context of recent bubbles and try to look for patterns. When they don't quite fit, they argue over whether this really is another instance of a previous bubble. My theory is that the overpriced asset is rarely the same thing as in the last 3 or 4 bubbles.

So, back to the present day. We have lots of high valuations for tech companies. But we also have lots of tech companies actually making a profit, plus operating costs are a lot lower. So we're not about to see a burst in the sense that the funding will dry up and companies will run out of runway. Instagram was like, 12 people(?), if they couldn't have got that $50mil investment I'm sure they could have found a way to keep operating for another year or two.

The challenge is to think about where the bubble might actually be. Could it be in advertising revenue? Are advertisers burning though reserves trying to get attention? Could it be in mineral resources? Are server or bandwidth costs artificially low? Could it be a bubble in intellectual property? Is the exact implementation of Facebook not actually as valuable as the companies valuation suggests. I have no idea, but I don't think this a complete re-run of 1999.

TLDR; I don't think this is "[Tech] Bubble 2.0", this is probably "[Something else] Bubble 1.0".

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#44
I thought one of the characteristics of a bubble -- almost a pre-requisite -- was for the money of the general public to be flowing in.

If things like this poetry IPO idea haven't happened and garnered piles of cash from unwitting investors throwing money into a market they don't understand in a herd mentality ... how exactly is it a sign of anything other than a goofy idea?

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#45

A startup bubble is the best thing that could possibly happen. Look at it this way. There are plenty of talented engineers, designers, and entrepreneurs out there trying to build the next big thing. Due to the incredible scale and reach of the internet economy, those who succeed will become fabulously wealthy. But most will fail (or at least not reach that scale) due to various circumstances---a misstep in execution,…

In a tech bubble, capital does not chase engineering talent; it chases whatever shiny thing resembles the last shiny thing that made headlines. And when the bubble bursts, the entire sector goes hungry for capital, even companies which, in a more sober market, would be recognized as good prospects for growth.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#46
post #31

the only bubble I see is in social media (instagram and zynga, mentioned a lot already in this thread). it's funny that business models which from my point of view are far more sustainable and also much more beneficial for society get considerably lower valuations (or at least media attention). i mean startups like asana, heroku, fogbugz or duolingo - whose main use case goes beyond sharing/playing with friends.

With the exception of duolingo, these are all companies which make products for other businesses, so we should ask: What do their clients make? If their clients get popped in this (hypothetical) bubble, won't they?

good point, there's certainly some exposure to let's say rather overvalued companies. eg. if you looke at the featured clients list of asana. nonetheless in their case, I think the possible applications for their service go well beyond IT companies.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#47
post #44

I thought one of the characteristics of a bubble -- almost a pre-requisite -- was for the money of the general public to be flowing in. If things like this poetry IPO idea haven't happened and garnered piles of cash from unwitting investors throwing money into a market they don't understand in a herd mentality ... how exactly is it a sign of anything other than a goofy idea?

a bubble in the sense of the dotcom bubble doesnt require the involvment of the public at all - it's simply an overvaluation of companies. as mentioned before, bubbles may be limited to very small sectors (eg. social media) and don't need to take down whole economies (like the housing bubble did) once they pop.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#48
post #43

I have a theory about bubbles: It's relatively easy to spot that you're in one, but it's very hard to pinpoint what sort of bubble it is. I'll explain... During the lead up the 2008 debt crisis I saw a lot of people talking about how house prices had been going up year on year and questioning whether we were in a property bubble. There was a debate though. Demand for housing was strong (partly due to population growt…

Bubbles require huge flows of investment cash to grow. You can't miss that scale of growth. They don't sneak up on you. What's hard is determining the point at which the growth is legitimate and at which point it's fad investment/fraud.

It was easy to see huge flows of cash into tech in the dot com bubble. It was easy to see huge flows of cash into real estate and the financial sector in our most-recent bubble.

But the biggest problem right now, is a lack of growth. I simply don't see how you can have a bubble without massive investment and no-one's investing like that in anything.

Most investors are paying any stable sovereign nation with its own currency to hold onto their money for them (very low, and in some cases negative, real bond rates.)

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#49
post #47
post #44

I thought one of the characteristics of a bubble -- almost a pre-requisite -- was for the money of the general public to be flowing in. If things like this poetry IPO idea haven't happened and garnered piles of cash from unwitting investors throwing money into a market they don't understand in a herd mentality ... how exactly is it a sign of anything other than a goofy idea?

a bubble in the sense of the dotcom bubble doesnt require the involvment of the public at all - it's simply an overvaluation of companies. as mentioned before, bubbles may be limited to very small sectors (eg. social media) and don't need to take down whole economies (like the housing bubble did) once they pop.

But it's a chronic or widespread overvaluation of something, right?

I guess I just don't see how professional investors could be snowed on a grand scale. Even if there is a bit of a trend in, say, social media - that doesn't mean an incubator is going to be taken in by a nonsense pitch, does it?

I would think you would need a lot more money from less educated or indirect sources to start passing off unquestionably weak companies, due the heat of the sector. (e.g. people trusting their long term money to money-managers with conflicting short-term incentives who are willing to gamble on known-bad goods on the assumption that they can find a bigger idiot to sell to before the music stops. Which essentially describes the entirety of the IPO and CDO nonsense in the last two bubbles.)

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#50
post #43

I have a theory about bubbles: It's relatively easy to spot that you're in one, but it's very hard to pinpoint what sort of bubble it is. I'll explain... During the lead up the 2008 debt crisis I saw a lot of people talking about how house prices had been going up year on year and questioning whether we were in a property bubble. There was a debate though. Demand for housing was strong (partly due to population growt…

Maybe it's not a bubble per se, maybe it's just overinvestment? The world economy really sucks right now, and people are seeking havens for their cash. The tech industry is one of the few bright spots in the world economy, and there's an evergreen hope of some runaway hit. So it could be possible for there to be overinvestment even in the face of widespread skepticism.

We also have a lot of supercool mobile electronics platforms being made by China now, and the companies and workers over there are just not getting a fair share of the value they are creating. Just look at Apple's balance sheet. Labor costs are rising, but given how things work in China...? So maybe it's the Chinese Oppression Bubble.

Post reply on HN