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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#861

Post by robertlagrant »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #830
robertlagrant wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you not confusing democratic societies with capitalist ones? Well, they both are rooted in the idea that individuals are important, which is a relatively new idea, all things considered. > How about I use the expression "greed driven societies" instead? You can do, except I think it's not helpful, as you're joining the ranks of the people who misuse the word "society" to mean "how I happen to think about the st…

> I think it's not helpful, as you're joining the ranks of the people who misuse the word "society" to mean "how I happen to think about the stuff I don't like in the world". Helpful to who? I see it differently. I think it helps us all to aspire to clear values. Karl Popper thought "there is no society". Lady Thatcher thought we merely misused the word society, not as you say - to universalise social facts - but to…

> I see it differently. I think it helps us all to aspire to clear values.

But which "us"? That's my point. You aren't talking to all of society (assuming "us" was all of society), so you using it like that doesn't even theoretically do this.

> Social facts exist, at least in Durkheim's view as behaviours and attitudes.

This isn't the same as "society". My point is that the definition of "society" changes dramatically based on where you live and what you consume. It's like a giant straw man.

> So I've no problem declaring, greed, vanity, megalomania as "stuff I don't like in the world". Others may or may not agree with me. As an individual, you may disagree. But as an individualist you must concede my equal right to call out greed and selfishness as harmful to the rest of us - even without a "Logical basis". Further, you must do so without criticism.... unless you deny the existence of social facts, or yourself find greed attractive and virtuous?

It's hard to make sense through the purple prose, but maybe I can pick something out. You're not calling out greed; you're calling an entire society greedy. That's the problem. All the rest of what you said here doesn't seem relevant.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#862

Post by Geisterde »

jolmg wrote: post #824
Geisterde wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understand this arguement. I hear it in the form "we should just regulate cars to be safer", why dont you just buy a safer car? "What do you take me for? I got a mustang GT, the last thing that car is worried about is safety". Interesting, you bought a car because its fast, not paying any consideration to whether it could safely get you from point A to B, and this is what you rely on to get you to work? Its n…

> I never understand this arguement. I hear it in the form "we should just regulate cars to be safer", why dont you just buy a safer car? I don't understand your argument. Do you expect every potential car buyer regardless of tech literacy to go to a dealership with an SDR setup on-hand, asking if they could test-out the key fobs, capture some signals, try to figure them out and look for common vulnerabilities on the…

Or, google.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#863

Post by kube-system »

Chris2048 wrote: post #806
kube-system wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reasonable way to evaluate risk is as a whole. Real world attackers pick whichever realm is easiest to exploit, they aren't going to waste their time doing something difficult when there are easier ways to accomplish their goal. > who presumably can call the police afterwards, and activate any lojack / immobilisation device before it can be removed. Yes, people who carjack usually aren't looking for a nice d…

> people who carjack usually.. No idea, but my point stand on how they achieve this in the first place.. > towing cars is neither difficult nor suspicious in many places because it's not a recognised method of theft. Also, buying a registered tow truck to commit a car theft doesn't sound easy to me.

Buying a tow truck is no different than buying a truck just about anywhere. Or one can simply buy a regular truck and bolt on a towing attachment to make their own tow truck.

e.g. https://liftandtow.com/

One can also purchase, rent, or steal a trailer and attach it to a vehicle. There are several types of trailer which can haul a car, which are all widely available to the public.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#864

Post by Chris2048 »

maxerickson wrote: post #841
Chris2048 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same problem exist for car keys. The answer is, when a person "inevitably lose[s] it", they need to pay to get their electronics refit.

This is like the initiative to get people to wear body armor to cut down on muggings.

How is it?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#865

Post by Chris2048 »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #848
Chris2048 wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give it to the police?.. Unless the tow truck is stolen, then who registered it?

Why would the police care? It's like people watched an episode of dragnet and now they think there are a bunch of guys down at the station working on their case. Probably in shifts? After a hit and run I once had an officer tell me that running tags would be "a lot of work". Last time I was victim of a hit and run in a motor vehicle the police had an eye witness statement and the physical vehicle itself. They decline…

I'm sorry if the police aren't taking car crime seriously where you live, but who else do you think should be investigating crime?

That said, a hit and run isn't the same as organised car thieves with tow trucks.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#866

Post by flanbiscuit »

rootusrootus wrote: post #331
flanbiscuit wrote: post #304

My car has keyless entry but does not have the push button to start. You still need to put in the physical key and turn the ignition. My car has been broken into but without damage. They rummaged through stuff and took some random things but we keep nothing of value in the car. I'm not sure how they broke in but I've seen videos[1] online on how a tow service can get your car door open using an air-wedge. Maybe they…

There is very little distinction between your physical key and a pushbutton. When you turn the key, it's just pushing a button internally that does the same as a button you'd hit with your finger. Few cars these days have any kind of direct connection between the ignition key and the starter.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the push button works because I've never owned a car that had one, but I thought the whole thing was that the key fob just needs to be near the car in order for the button to actually do anything. And these car thieves are repeating signals from key fobs that are inside the owners' homes. At least with a physical key, it needs to be present and inserted into the ignition to start the car, you can't use any technology to help there. Of course there are other ways to steal a car, but it at least deters these modern techniques.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#867

Post by jasonladuke0311 »

noduerme wrote: post #718
strangattractor wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one time is was possible to open car doors with a coat hanger. Nobody suggested banning coat hangers. They fixed the doors.

This came in handy for me once when I locked myself out of a u-haul in what used to be a rough neighborhood in New York. I was standing there fishing with a coat hanger trying to figure it out when a gangster looking dude came up and was like "here, let me help you with that," and 3 seconds later had the door open.

Haha similar story. I used to deliver pizzas and worked with a pretty rough crowd. Once I locked my car while it was running and had a bunch of deliveries. One of the cooks unlocked it in about five seconds.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#868

Post by TylerE »

Chris2048 wrote: post #670
TylerE wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A traditional car key can be trivially duplicated at any hardware store. That's the difference. You can make as many spares as you want for a couple bucks a pop. No dependencies. No network.

Why can't electronic keys be duplicated / backed-up?

Because they only have the public key. You need the private key which NO ONE gets, not even the dealer. They send the required info in (which includes the serial / "key") for the new key to the home office. You can't just copy the key, even electronically, as it will have a different hard-wired "seed".

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#869

Post by nonrandomstring »

robertlagrant wrote: post #861
nonrandomstring wrote: post #830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's not helpful, as you're joining the ranks of the people who misuse the word "society" to mean "how I happen to think about the stuff I don't like in the world". Helpful to who? I see it differently. I think it helps us all to aspire to clear values. Karl Popper thought "there is no society". Lady Thatcher thought we merely misused the word society, not as you say - to universalise social facts - but to…

> I see it differently. I think it helps us all to aspire to clear values. But which "us"? That's my point. You aren't talking to all of society (assuming "us" was all of society), so you using it like that doesn't even theoretically do this. > Social facts exist, at least in Durkheim's view as behaviours and attitudes. This isn't the same as "society". My point is that the definition of "society" changes dramaticall…

I said our society is driven by greed. And it's led by greed. That's a failure of leadership.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#870

Post by badgersnake »

sonicanatidae wrote: post #857
badgersnake wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the iPhone 4 came out and antennagate happened, they gave everyone a plastic case for free.

They gave everyone a plastic case for free, after the world went nuts over just how stupid that issue was. Let's not paint Apple with an altruistic brush.

Of course they’re not altruistic, it was a damage limitation PR exercise.

The point was that the didn’t, as you suggested they would, charge people on this occasion.

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