Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

security.apple.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 280 posts

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#261

Post by artimaeis »

rekoil wrote: post #248
artimaeis wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that’s why I am trying to clarify that it’s iCloud for Messages that is not enabled by default. iCloud backup IS enabled. But Messages in iCloud is off.

Right, and in iCloud backups you can choose to include or don't include iMessage data in those, is the iMessage data included by default?

Gah, now I see. Yes, it does include messages in iCloud backup by default. The "Messages for iCloud" option is exposed at the "Apps using iCloud" menu but iMessage backups are in the iCloud Backup for the specific device.

TIL.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#262

Post by artimaeis »

artimaeis wrote: post #90
sneak wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

As far as I'm aware, iCloud for Messages is not enabled by default. Security-conscious users should know not to turn it on, though -- if iCloud servicing warrants is part of their threat model. Further, Apple ended up rolling out Advanced Data Protection for iCloud in 2023, so users who truly don't want Apple holding those keys can effectively take them from Apple. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/advanced-da…

Self-replying since I can't edit or delete this.

Sneak was right -- by default iCloud backup is enabled and is backing up all iMessage, SMS, and MMS messages.

I was just caught up on the difference between iCloud for Messages and iCloud backup of messages.

Apple support article that lays out what's backed up by default:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/108770

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#263

Post by jwells89 »

godelski wrote: post #245
walterbell wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't Signal export the local messages? Wire on iOS has local export.

The post addresses that a bit, but it is a few years old now. I'm not a app dev so I have no clue about these systems. But the claim is that Apple doesn't give you a lot of control and that sounds like a very Apple thing to me. I mean aren't they well known for "my way or the highway" attitude?

One thing that the post oddly omits but has been possible and reasonably easy to implement on iOS for ages is simply bundling up messages, keys, etc into an archive in internal app storage and then letting the user AirDrop it to a Mac or another iOS device. I might be missing something but this is the sort of thing a capable engineer can have working smoothly in somewhere between an evening and a few days.

If they want to extend this transfer ability to other platforms, they could do what some comic/manga reader and video player apps have done and bundle in a tiny web server that allows the user to download/upload files with a web browser protected by a username and password, which is started/stopped as needed. As a bonus they could offer this on Android too for wireless backup management.

There’s also nothing stopping them from building Signal clients such that they’re able to directly connect to each other over the local network and do whatever transfers are required that way.

Apple doesn’t prohibit of any of these. I wonder why they weren’t explored.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#264

Post by jwells89 »

godelski wrote: post #234
joshjob42 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before anyone goes evangelizing Signal, make sure to tell your iOS friends that if they ever lose their phone they lose every message they ever sent on Signal with no way to restore them, and the same applies if they ever get an Android phone (latter also true of iMessage, but WhatsApp is totally cross-platform).

While I agree with your point and I think you're right, let's remember that part of the issue is Apple. Might be worth reading this comment from the devs[0]. I wish the feature existed too, but I get it and don't think all blame is on them. For lost devices, well... is that a bug? Where would the backup come from? Signal is anti-cloud, as they should be. BUT, I do think people store too much data. Pictures, messages,…

The thing about message history is that many of the times it’s been useful, I’ve had no way of knowing the messages had any importance in the moment. It’s only been months or years down the road that they’re needed, by which point the person I’d been conversing with has likely forgotten the message content and so asking them again isn’t helpful.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#265

Post by sneak »

etchalon wrote: post #228
sneak wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iMessage’s practical lack of e2ee isn’t a matter of “perfect security”. It’s simply not e2ee because the keys are escrowed to the middle service. It’s not even a little bit secure. The encryption has been fully backdoored by sharing the endpoint keys off of the device. Apple turns over customer data on over 70,000 customers per year without a warrant under FISA/702 (prism) and NSLs. The number gets bigger every year.…

As far as I know, iMessage keys are not escrowed to any middle service. What are you basing that belief on?

Apple’s own HT202303. It is quite clear on the matter, even going so far as to point out that the keys are rotated when you turn off iCloud Backup.

Read the parts about Messages in iCloud, the service used to sync messages between devices. Those keys are included in the non-e2ee iCloud Backup. Both are enabled by default.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#266

Post by etchalon »

sneak wrote: post #265
etchalon wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, iMessage keys are not escrowed to any middle service. What are you basing that belief on?

Apple’s own HT202303. It is quite clear on the matter, even going so far as to point out that the keys are rotated when you turn off iCloud Backup. Read the parts about Messages in iCloud, the service used to sync messages between devices. Those keys are included in the non-e2ee iCloud Backup. Both are enabled by default.

HT202303 refers to storing the keys for the Messages in iCloud feature.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#267

Post by sandyarmstrong »

Retr0id wrote: post #134
andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm way out of my depth in terms of the math here. But my 'software engineer brain' likes the ideal of using the prime factoring problem, because it's so simple to understand, and feels like some kind of universal primitive. "It's easy to multiply but hard to factor." It just seems so intuitive. But I'm reading the 'learning with errors' wiki page and it's beyond my comprehension. There's a weird fear in my mind that…

The explanation in this video is what made it click for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K026C5YaB3A

Thank you! This video was GREAT. I was having trouble putting it all together from the wikipedia page alone.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#268

Post by walterbell »

jwells89 wrote: post #263
godelski wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post addresses that a bit, but it is a few years old now. I'm not a app dev so I have no clue about these systems. But the claim is that Apple doesn't give you a lot of control and that sounds like a very Apple thing to me. I mean aren't they well known for "my way or the highway" attitude?

One thing that the post oddly omits but has been possible and reasonably easy to implement on iOS for ages is simply bundling up messages, keys, etc into an archive in internal app storage and then letting the user AirDrop it to a Mac or another iOS device. I might be missing something but this is the sort of thing a capable engineer can have working smoothly in somewhere between an evening and a few days. If they wa…

> bundling up messages, keys, etc into an archive in internal app storage and then letting the user AirDrop it to a Mac or another iOS device.

Wire E2EE messenger on iOS does something similar and allows the user to save the file to any storage provider.

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#269

Post by skrowl »

browningstreet wrote: post #27
lapetitejort wrote: post #13

Advanced encryption, until it comes time to text 70% of the phones in the world, in which case it defaults to a protocol released 32 years ago.

The top 7 phones sold last year were all iPhones. https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/21/iphones-top-7-best-sell... Too bad the other vendors don’t bother keeping up.

[dead]

Re: iMessage with PQ3 Cryptographic Protocol

#270

Post by godelski »

jwells89 wrote: post #263
godelski wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post addresses that a bit, but it is a few years old now. I'm not a app dev so I have no clue about these systems. But the claim is that Apple doesn't give you a lot of control and that sounds like a very Apple thing to me. I mean aren't they well known for "my way or the highway" attitude?

One thing that the post oddly omits but has been possible and reasonably easy to implement on iOS for ages is simply bundling up messages, keys, etc into an archive in internal app storage and then letting the user AirDrop it to a Mac or another iOS device. I might be missing something but this is the sort of thing a capable engineer can have working smoothly in somewhere between an evening and a few days. If they wa…

> There’s also nothing stopping them from building Signal clients such that they’re able to directly connect to each other over the local network and do whatever transfers are required that way.

There's also nothing stopping you (or anyone else here) from adding such a feature. Either into the official, Molly, or one of the other forks.

You may also be interested in this feature request.

https://community.signalusers.org/t/signal-airdrop/37402

Post reply on HN