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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#791

Post by franga2000 »

electriclove wrote: post #710
franga2000 wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manufacturer is not the victim here, the buyer is. If I pay a contractor to install a new door and lock on my apartment and it turns out they did a terrible job which made it trivial for a thief to break in, the contractor should be liable. Crime exists, this is the world we live in. Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is k…

But people ARE saying the thieves are not at fault.. “it’s just kids”, “we don’t want to put them in jail because that would ruin their future”, “they can’t pay a fine anyway so there is no point in going after them”

"We shouldn't put dumb kids into cages and forever brand them as criminals for making one bad decision" is a far cry from "they are not at fault for what they did".

Also, insert the usual point about how many people are forced into crime by poverty and the complete lack of a social safety net in the US here.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#792

Post by Dylan16807 »

fargle wrote: post #784
bmicraft wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody can or should be expected to know about every the safety and security aspects of every single minute detail in their lives.

i didn't say they did! i said they need to take responsibility for their own safety/security or suffer the consequences. whether they should be expected to... is totally irrelevant. i'm not stating a preference, i'm stating a fundamental law of nature. and not knowing even that simple fact is what makes it "deservedly" so.

Regulation can remove those consequences for any chosen safety/security feature by making every choice have it. Fundamental law of nature? You're deluding yourself.

(And if you say you mean outside of regulation, that people need to be responsible in general for other aspects of life, then your argument is no longer connected to the original comment you replied to.)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#793

Post by fargle »

devmor wrote: post #713
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

Do you believe that consumer protections should not exist?

yes, almost.

for example, if a company made a car alarm called "SUPER EXTRA SECURE ELITE++ V5" and told me it had a "guaranteed thief proof" immobilizer. but then we find that a viral Tik Tok video shows how to with a hairpin and spit we can completely disable it and in 5 seconds and take the car for a drive and access the owners credit card info. and then also the car often bursts into flames while parked and turned off. and we of course find out that this was no "oops" and the corporations involved full-well knew about these issues and hid them to get a bonus. well, that'd certainly be a job for consumer protection laws.

but this is a case of "you got what you paid for". there's a place in the market for crank-up windows and basic plain cars without keyfobs and fancy alarms. that isn't wrong, and it definitely isn't "negligence" just because other carmakers pick different places in the market. and the fact that criminals do bad things doesn't change that.

and, thank you very much, i don't need consumer protection against that kind of thing. let's start with the lying and cheating corps and work our way up to collusion and price fixing. then let's get onto repair...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#794

Post by Dylan16807 »

Geisterde wrote: post #763
CivBase wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you look up the software security measures implemented by the keyfob too? That information would be very difficult for a layperson to find and make sense of. This may be the "age of information", but information is only useful as your ability to find, understand, and evaluate it.

Lets see, oooo tiktok, heres the kia challenge. Or maybe google "are kias secure". Whatever format you can understand, you will be presented several sources that explain the situation quite clearly.

And if you googled that three and a half years ago when you were actually buying the car?

I bet you had to know exactly what to look for, and "problems with kias" wouldn't get the average person there.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#795

Post by Dylan16807 »

electriclove wrote: post #772
electriclove wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my left leaning workplace in my left leaning state, most colleagues do not want to assign the thieves any blame or have them face any consequences. These colleagues only want to blame and penalize the manufacturers. I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves.

Can the downvoters explain why they disagree with: "I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves."

That's obviously not the sentence people are disagreeing with.

There is no way your colleagues want the thieves to not face any consequences. It's a completely different thing to not trust the justice system to give an appropriate consequence.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#796

Post by fargle »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #792
fargle wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i didn't say they did! i said they need to take responsibility for their own safety/security or suffer the consequences. whether they should be expected to... is totally irrelevant. i'm not stating a preference, i'm stating a fundamental law of nature. and not knowing even that simple fact is what makes it "deservedly" so.

Regulation can remove those consequences for any chosen safety/security feature by making every choice have it. Fundamental law of nature? You're deluding yourself. (And if you say you mean outside of regulation, that people need to be responsible in general for other aspects of life, then your argument is no longer connected to the original comment you replied to.)

regulation is part of the universe. to expect that it protects you exactly when you'd want it to, but does not inhibit you want you'd not want it to is stupid. trying to offload your responsibility onto some "them" is not a fix.

i'm definitely not deluding myself. that is life. you need to have both the freedom and the inclination to take care of yourself, if you don't have both you'll suffer.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#797

Post by biosboiii »

technofiend wrote: post #728
strangattractor wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one time is was possible to open car doors with a coat hanger. Nobody suggested banning coat hangers. They fixed the doors.

I locked myself out of my car so often I ended up wedging a coat hanger under the rear bumper. You're right: car doors used to be trivial to yank open when you knew the trick. These days I'd love to create a little side project that sets the alarm off on my car any time a relay attack is detected. I'm sure Mark Rober or someone will end up doing it.

sounds rather complicated. You would have to scan the entire spectrum (not the entire, but like certain bands) and detect if there is someone sending power on there.

But modern vehicles detect these relay attacks and drop your message when you are too far away (ToF Measurement), you could maybe instrument that. But then when you walk to your car on an open field, you may also trigger the alarm because your key is out of range for a short time.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#798

Post by petsfed »

iraqmtpizza wrote: post #683
petsfed wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the same people who threw away roughly two thousand of years of the most successful philosophy have doomed themselves to a demographic death spiral I don't think this is true. Falling birth rate is positively correlated with key markers of quality of life (especially infant survival rate, education, overall lifespan, and productivity) irrespective of dominant religion or religiosity in general. edit: changed "infan…

Sorry, that doesn't explain the massive fertility gap between atheists and theists or the fact that atheists are nowhere remotely near replacement rate

Just to understand here: you're claiming that since atheists have fewer children, they'll eventually be out-bred by the religious?

Atheism is, in general, a consequence of, not a cause of, all the things that also result in lower birth rates. Birth rates in the US started to fall a lot earlier than religiosity did.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#799

Post by Dylan16807 »

fargle wrote: post #776
electriclove wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punish the kid’s parents.. (oh wait, there might be a problem here)

not hard at all. where is CPS? obviously someone isn't giving an 11 year-old appropriate supervision at all if they are driving, let alone stealing a car. there absolutely should be consequences for both the parents and the child in this situation. i'm not saying one mistake, send the kid to prison, take away parental rights. but it should be severe enough to matter, including several thousand dollars restitution.

Thanks for your contribution to the total destruction of outside roaming and play for children.

It is perfectly fine to let an 11 year old walk a couple blocks unsupervised. And if they steal a car at that point, it is not a supervision problem.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#800

Post by Dylan16807 »

fargle wrote: post #793
devmor wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that consumer protections should not exist?

yes, almost. for example, if a company made a car alarm called "SUPER EXTRA SECURE ELITE++ V5" and told me it had a "guaranteed thief proof" immobilizer. but then we find that a viral Tik Tok video shows how to with a hairpin and spit we can completely disable it and in 5 seconds and take the car for a drive and access the owners credit card info. and then also the car often bursts into flames while parked and turned…

Fobs are very cheap. There is no reason to want cars without them.
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