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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

saveflipper.ca

621–630 of 916 posts

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#621
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tik-Tok-inspired Kia thefts weren't a problem in Canada because they've required immobilizers since 2007, something Kia skimped on for the US market.

[flagged]

Nominally, you are correct, but if we can collectively make decisions that decrease the risk of theft, is it not immoral bot to take action?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#622
post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

Let's say a hardware exploit for iPhones becomes obvious and is spread through social media. Something absurd like "attaching a shorted iphone cable".

Are you going to be the first to buy an add-on lock or immobilizer? And everyone should also have to purchase an add-on?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#623
post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

> if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it

Immobilizers were a standard feature on cars for decades. If you went to buy a car, no one was putting immobilizer on the list of features, and they certainly wouldn't let you try breaking the ignition lock on a test drive.

If they had advertised that their vehicles were insecure, then sure, it's on the buyer, but they didn't.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, there's also entire fields of study of how God makes everything in the world happen, so I doubt I'm much convinced by how many fields of studies there are. People have been able to bullshit each other over obvious things for eons. The existence of such fields means nothing.

God doesn't have many peer reviewed studies. This is a non-sequitur. You don't get to hand wave away reality that you don't like

Cellular functions of spermatogonial stem cells in relation to JAK/STAT signaling pathway was peer-reviewed so that isn't convincing either.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#625
post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. In the US we lock more of our citizens behind bars than any other nation on Earth. Conviction for even a minor offense can make it extremely difficult to get employment or housing. People rarely get a clean slate after serving their time and even an arrest record without a conviction can haunt you. Nearly all other developed countri…

this is an absolutely insane position to take in 2024. all around we have junkies in the streets, squatters, shoplifters, car thieves, burglars operating with impunity. you are replying to a post about 12-13 year-olds stealing cars and carrying guns, ffs. this should involve at least several years in jail. maybe a 2nd chance at 18. the pendulum has definitely swung too far, but the direction it's swinging is not what…

None of these things are new. Junkies aren’t new, organized criminal groups aren’t new, car thefts aren’t new.

There has been a pandemic uptick, but the broader trend is way, way less common than in your parents lifetime.

The thing about policies that are redistributive and the media is that generally the people writing the stories will be closest to those who have been hurt, not helped. I am sure there are plenty of people (criminals, yes) who have been helped by bail reform.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

All CANBUS packages that are useful to drive a car should be encrypted using a public/private key that is in the owner key. Decryption chips are cheap and fast.

I work in CA/PKI, particularly IOT device registration/security via TPM keys.

I cannot imagine a scenario after years working with our own infra and clients where a car manufacturer would restrict access to the vehicle with a private key decryption on the FOB tpm, (that can't be exported or copied.)

Lost/broke fob? 4000 pound paperweight, to no ones benefit. Insurance nightmare that would also be violating right to repair in many states (which is a different issue) .

There SHOULD be a standard like every person has some device or process that is also a CA, who can then generate and dictate what keypairs can access a device, car etc. But we are very very very far away form that.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Windows balance a variety of competing needs - security, ventilation, egress during emergencies, mental health, lighting, etc. It would be, perhaps, egregiously negligent for a maximum security prison architect to install large plate glass windows in their cells, but having windows isn't automatically egregious. A car without windows (or with unbreakable ones) is a deathtrap in an accident; omitting them would be…

Egregious is subjective. You think it's egregious for cars to have locks which can be circumvented by thieves. Maybe I think it's egregious that construction firms don't install iron bars on all ground floor windows.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/kia-and-hyundai-vehicles-in-can...

> CNN reported that only 26 per cent of Hyundai and Kia models from 2015 to 2019 were equipped with electronic immobilizers in the U.S., compared with 96 per cent of all other vehicles in those years, making the Hyundai and Kia models roughly twice as likely to be stolen.

If 96% of buildings in a neighborhood have iron bars over the ground floor windows, and you build a development in which only 26% of them do, yes... that's probably negligent, unless there are other factors to explain the discrepancy.

If theives start disproportionately breaking into your development's properties, your tenants can probably be a bit miffed about your lack of security measures.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, or perhaps not. It has to be hard enough it can't be done in the street (without getting attention), but maybe it could be easy enough to do in a garage. But even if it is expensive, the result would be that either people with take more care, or they'll lose their car. Maybe it's not a bad thing that people who can't manage a key are less likely to be on the roads - or that its more likely they lose access t…

Yes, but this wouldn't prevent dangerous street criminals from stealing cars. Many of them steal the keys with the car. They go down to the gas station, and wait for an old lady with a nice car to pull up to the pump, and when she hops out they hop in. The criminals doing more skilled attacks typically aren't joyriding or using it to commit other crimes, they typically doing it for financial gain: they want the car,…

That kind of expands the scope of this conversations to mugging/carjacking, which also comes with a higher penalty, and probably higher priority to the police.

And, it involves interacting with someone, who presumably can call the police afterwards, and activate any lojack / immobilisation device before it can be removed. Presumably the appeal of stealing a parked car it may be a while before it has been discovered and reported stolen.

Also, doing such a thing in a gas-station where there are likely cameras and even other people / attendants make it seem pretty risky to me. Are these dudes just hanging around the pumps in masks? What country is this?

> not considered by most to be an acceptable solution

Things change, but also, it's as much up to the government and/or insurance corps what's acceptable.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#630
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple years in prison would mean that they cannot soon reoffend. Seems like reasonable solution to me.

Do you know what the recurrence rate is for U.S. prisons? It's around 44%. 44% of people released from prison, within a year, go on to commit another crime severe enough to end them up back in prison

What's the recurrence rate for people who commit a crime but aren't locked up?

> another crime severe enough to end them up back in

Then ramp up the penalty for repeat offences.

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