Live data from Hacker News

Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

saveflipper.ca

351–360 of 916 posts

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#351
post #249

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> My theory is that this is a consequence of relativism and the general cultural exhaustion Western society seems to have with enforcing any sort of religious or ethical norms. Because prior to this period of decay in the west, we don’t have a rich history of theft and violence going back as long as there has even been civilisation? These “ethical expectations” have always been weak, and always been ignored to a grea…

It also seems like a straightforward resource coordination problem.

If a city has 10 car thieves and all cars are relatively hard to steal, the city can manage the police resources to investigate the crimes. If a city has 10 car thieves and half of all cars are very simple to steal, the city needs to devote a lot more police resources to investigate the crimes.

Of course the worst fear is the number of car thieves has gone up. This is probably true in some specific cities. But even if it hasn't, other people owning an easy to steal car hurts everyone since it drains resources.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#353
Let's suppose that hypothetically the Flipper Zero could be banned...

OK, so then what about the (Texas Instruments) TI CC1101 rf (Radio Frequency) Transceiver chip/IC that powers it?

Is whoever is going to ban the Flipper Zero also going to ban the TI CC1101 rf transceiver chip?

Because if they don't -- then many other clones of the Flipper Zero can and probably will exist in the future...

OK, but let's take things a step further...

Let's suppose that whoever is trying to ban the Flipper Zero -- is able to ban the Flipper Zero AND the TI CC1101 rf transceiver chip that powers it!

OK. So what about all of the other rf transceiver chips that exist?

Is whoever is going to ban the Flipper Zero -- going to also ban ALL other transciever rf chips?

But let's take things a step further...

Let's suppose that whoever wants to ban the Flipper Zero -- also is able to successfully ban ALL transciever rf chips! (Highly unlikely, since many are used in highly popular consumer products including but not limited to Routers, Smart TVs and Cell Phones!)

But let's suppose they could pull that one off...

OK, so now the next question is (to the party or parties that wish to ban the Flipper Zero!), if you can successfully ban all of the rf transciever chips, then can you ban all non-IC based radio circuits?

You know, like analog electronic radio circuits, capacitors, coils, antennas, stuff like that?

Can you ban all of it at the same time?

?

But let's even go a step further... let's suppose whoever wants to ban the Flipper Zero -- bans it, and also successfully bans all rf transciever IC's, and all analog radio circuits, and all previously analog electronic parts for making a radio circuit...

OK, so final question (to whomever would wish to ban the Flipper Zero!):

Can you ban all of the electrons, which flow through wires, which could be used in creating radio circuits?

To accomplish this, you'd need to ban all batteries, all power lines, and all generators! (Highly unlikely, because power in is various forms creates transactions which in turn create taxes which in turn fuel local, regional, state and country governments!)

So -- good luck with all of that!

I myself would never use a Flipper Zero for unlawful purposes (if I possesed one), and I would never drive a car which could be rf hacked by a Flipper Zero or other rf device on the other side of things.

In other words, both sides of the argument are stupid.

A person could probably kill someone else with a pillow, a roll of paper towels, or some other incredibly soft object, "never before did we think that it could be used as a murder weapon" item (George Carlin: "You could probably kill a guy with the Sunday New York times by beating him to death with it if you were so inclined")-- but we don't pass laws banning those items because of an isolated case of misuse!

Heck, now that I think about it, someone could probably kill someone else with a single roll of the softest toilet paper -- if they really put their mind to it!

But we don't pass laws banning ultra-soft Charmin(tm), now do we? ("A gang of 12 or 13 year old youths used it to murder their parents -- so it must be banned!" :-) )

?

Point is, there are some really stupid arguments being advanced here...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For good reasons I wouldn't be so sure... > just with a lot of unforeseen consequences. Exactly, a classical case of Chesterton's fence. > The laws we're passing are a consequence of belief systems too. Some of them are (and you're making a very good point here!), but some of them may be just pragmatic. > For people who see the world that way, these beliefs are unfalsifiable Again, very true. > just like the belief…

> As a Catholic, I think I can tell you that it might be more nuanced. I believe that ethical norms are not some arbitrary rules, but are a bit like the part of a manual for some device that says under what conditions the device works properly and under what conditions it may break, only for humans. As in "if you commit adultery, you will end up unhappy; you have been warned". Forewords: I was raised in a Catholic fa…

[flagged]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#355
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation doesn’t need to be as strict as #2: you could have a way for a registered service shop to get a per-device rekey by shifting some liability to them. Making it per device prevents bulk usage and an active communication with the manufacturer would mean the cops could ask the owners of a shady auto shop some questions when 80% of the stolen cars in the area are being rekeyed at a place the owners have neve…

I don't think that the dealer equipment being used to steal cars today is coming from dealers where management is knowingly engaging in car theft. It is other people who are misusing those tools. There are many hundreds of thousands of people who work at dealerships, and many do not care about their employers reputation. Also, many dealerships are broken into.

Yes, which is why I suggested a combination of measures to change that. An active per-device transaction would make it clear when a dealer’s access is being misused, and if it affects their business viability it would turn out that they could do a better job of controlling access. Hundreds of thousands of people work at banks, too, and many of them do not care about their employers but thefts from customer accounts are rare because the companies are incentivized to set appropriate safeguards. There’s no reason why car repairs couldn’t be the same other than that it costs more than what they’ve been doing, and there aren’t strong enough incentives for them to take on those costs.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#356

Canada needs to reinstate the national port police, and actually do their job in policing. Policy changes for cars or technology will not solve the lawlessness in Canada.

Yes this is the real problem. We aren’t stopping fentanyl from coming into our ports from China/Mexico and we aren’t stopping stolen cars from being sent out to Africa and the Middle East.

More spot checks and inspection resources are needed at our border.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#357
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah it kinda is

No. Windows balance a variety of competing needs - security, ventilation, egress during emergencies, mental health, lighting, etc. It would be, perhaps, egregiously negligent for a maximum security prison architect to install large plate glass windows in their cells, but having windows isn't automatically egregious. A car without windows (or with unbreakable ones) is a deathtrap in an accident; omitting them would be…

Egregious is subjective. You think it's egregious for cars to have locks which can be circumvented by thieves. Maybe I think it's egregious that construction firms don't install iron bars on all ground floor windows.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#358
post #122
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tow truck attracts attention - there will be a dozen witnesses who watch you do everything - not one will think to remember any details that can identify you. Just replace the vinyl sticker on the door with your false company name on after each job and you are safe from being caught.

A tow truck costs more than a tablet. The guys and the tablets performing the theft are disposable, tow truck is not. Rapid scanning of export shipping containers with AI processing to detect the contents might help curb the demand for the stolen cars.

True, but you can find them used once in a while for cheap enough. It only takes a few stolen cars to pay off the tow truck (you want to be legal here as this is easy to track), and then each one is pure profit.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#359
All cars are insecure but what the government should be doing is forcing auto makers to allow customers to install their own security add-ons.

Car manufacturers are now locking down the OBDC ports because people were using them to add functionality to the car that they want you to pay for, like 3rd party adaptive cruise control. But this also prevents you from adding your own security.

They also fail to encrypt security systems but block you from replacing them with encrypted versions.

They claim they do it “for safety”, and while there is some merit to that, they are drawing the line way to far in the “we make money at the expense of your security and customizability” direction.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#360

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Unfortunately, without some kind of laws or regulations it appears I may not be able to buy a secure car.

I suppose we can all go back to installing The Club on our steering wheels and adding an alarm that cycles through a half-dozen tired sounds.

Post reply on HN