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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#151

Post by FirmwareBurner »

2024throwaway wrote: post #142
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.

Because the bible probably says "Thou shall not use a Flipper Zero to break into thy neighbor's chambers."

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#152

Post by 2024throwaway »

acdha wrote: post #75
raizer88 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All CANBUS packages that are useful to drive a car should be encrypted using a public/private key that is in the owner key. Decryption chips are cheap and fast.

Maintenance is a big key management problem though: if only the owner has it, there will be problems when people inevitably lose it. If there are shared keys for service departments or databases, thieves will get access to them. Things like time-limited on-demand keys can limit those problems but now you can’t get your car serviced when Toyota’s servers go down and they need to commit to not breaking API compatibilit…

GP said the key is in the car key. You already give the car key to a mechanic, I don't see how this would make maintenance any harder.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#153

Post by eruci »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You can say the same thing about banning guns (although I just realized that's a bit of a stretch) If people acted responsibly we would not need to ban guns.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#154

Post by thinkingtoilet »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

The problem with this is all it takes is one bad actor to cause a lot of chaos and destruction. The laws are needed.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#155

Post by ceejayoz »

sokoloff wrote: post #135
ceejayoz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kia and Hyundai saved like $20/car by skimping on a part that all the other major manufacturers include by default, leading to cars that were insecure by design. That's negligent. Punishing people for taking advantage of that vulnerability is certainly warranted, but it's also closing the barn door after the horse has already bolted.

In the context of this article (Canada focused), do the relevant Hyundais and Kias have the same security problem? https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/kia-and-hyundai-vehicles-in-can...

I agree with the article; that regulating car manufacturers who make insecure cars is the correct approach. This specific case illustrates the effectiveness of the approach.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#156

Post by sokoloff »

ceejayoz wrote: post #155
sokoloff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of this article (Canada focused), do the relevant Hyundais and Kias have the same security problem? https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/kia-and-hyundai-vehicles-in-can...

I agree with the article; that regulating car manufacturers who make insecure cars is the correct approach. This specific case illustrates the effectiveness of the approach.

(I agree with the article as well.)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#157

Post by jakelazaroff »

nonethewiser wrote: post #83
whimsicalism wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which the government is not obligated to do in the US. Just a talking point - and the US has one of the most extensive criminal justice apparatuses of any country. This article is about Canada - which has largely failed to control its organized crime+ports situation, unlike authorities in the US where most organized crime is organized from abroad and so difficult to disrupt but also less effective.

[flagged]

That anecdote is a non sequitur, but nonetheless: I assume you didn't see the full video, where it turned out that the police assaulted the "illegals" unprovoked?

https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/02/08/times-square-migrants-arr...

That Fox News article is mostly information-free, but my takeaway is that it's blaming "bail reform" for the release of the people the police assaulted, which is abjectly false: they were charged with a violent felony, which means the judge — a prosecutor for almost two decades! — could have set bail.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#158

Post by bombcar »

ceejayoz wrote: post #76
jonhohle wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, the people _stealing_ cars. I feel like this is bizarro world where what was previously accepted as adequate deterrence is now penalized because actual criminals have fewer and fewer incentives to follow established normal behaviors. “Maybe your face shouldn’t have been so punchable” is not a reasonable position to take, imho. Flipper, lock picks, bolt cutters, etc. are all reasonable tools. So is the e…

Kia and Hyundai saved like $20/car by skimping on a part that all the other major manufacturers include by default, leading to cars that were insecure by design. That's negligent. Punishing people for taking advantage of that vulnerability is certainly warranted, but it's also closing the barn door after the horse has already bolted.

It's very "both/and".

Kia needs to fix their fuckup AND organized gangs need to be investigated and broken up.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#159

Post by engineer_22 »

2024throwaway wrote: post #142
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.

Religious norms guide behavior. They are a course in ethics for those without undergraduate education.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#160

Post by seanmcdirmid »

nulbyte wrote: post #111
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes. There are already laws against theft. They apply to vehicles, secure and insecure alike. A law mandating a minimum level of security, as GP suggests, seems to me to fit the suggestion, that auto manufacturers have…

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again.

Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need some compassion.

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