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ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

theguardian.com

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Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#31

I find that 10mg of a Concerta derivative make me enjoy the positive aspects of my disorder -- ADHD inattentive type -- while preventing the negatives. I was already a working adult when I first tried medicating and it's been a life changing experience. I take one dose on a weekday morning when I have to concentrate on manual tasks and I skip the dose when I want to use more of my imagination for concept and idea gat…

My partner tried a lot (and went trough weird other diagnosis) and found her solution in simple dextroamphetamine. It's a life changer for her and our relationship as well :) also very cheap as it's no protected substance.

Around here many are deemed to get ritalin first or other similarly weird substances which has way more side effects for some than good ol' amphetamine.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#32
post #7

I think this is a good example of how we mix up concepts: ADHD is just a phenotype. Then, our society classifies it as a condition because it does not go well with current circumstances. Although, both are separate things.

Is there an actual consensus on what ADHD _is_, besides a catch-all for some common concentration and hyperactivity symptoms? People online assert a lot of things, such as "it's a dysfunction of dopamine pathways", "it's genetic", "it's a sort of autism", "it's a brain chemistry problem". But never anything that looked like a real definition backed by good science. My own psychiatrist's diagnosis was a bunch of obvio…

To answer your question: Not that I know of.

To waffle freely:

I believe it's lower than normal background levels of dopamine.

Obligatory disclaimer I am in no way a doctor or scientist. This is probably wrong. Pinches of salt all round. This is a theory I'm kicking around now and then but I don't have the knowledge to confirm/deny the hypothesis yet.

When a normal person tackles a regular task they'll get a little squirt of dopamine leading up to the task (anticipation) and then a corresponding signal when the task is done (I did the thing correctly, woohoo).[0]

When a normal person tackles a task and gets a better than expected result, they get a fresh squirt of dopamine upon completion (Oh wow, that went really well! I should consider doing this again!)

When someone with the ADHD-type brain wiring tackles a regular task they'll get the initial anticipation squirt, but upon completing the task they'll get a lesser amount (in dopamine language: that didn't go as well as I thought it would)

Compound that effect over $age years and you get someone with no real motivation to do anything, often distracted by random things that might be interesting, anxious, depression, imposter syndrome, all that good stuff - they rarely get a "I did good" signal, so nothing feels worth doing and they don't feel like they've had much success in life. Also might explain why a lot of ADHD folks have some sort of dopamine loop going on - alcohol, smoking, drugs, overeating, absolutely covering every meal in salt, etc. Something that brings up their background level of dopamine.

You do get positive effects from this - it's not all doom and gloom! - quick learners, jack of all trades, outside the box thinking, anything that might give a better dopamine response than the day to day routines

Might also explain all the "ADHD people were great as cavemen" stories that pop up now and then - nothing gives more dopamine than "holy fuck, I survived", the modern day doesn't really have many of those moments.

Feels like this would also explain why someone with ADHD can take stimulant medication and not bounce off the walls like a normal person would on the same medication - their background level of dopamine is being brought up to normal levels by the medication which in turn allows the rest of the system works as it does in normal people.

[0]: I actually found this theory while looking into AI stuff, haha: https://deepmind.google/discover/blog/dopamine-and-temporal-...

The quick summary from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

> Within the brain, dopamine functions partly as a global reward signal. An initial dopamine response to a rewarding stimulus encodes information about the salience, value, and context of a reward. In the context of reward-related learning, dopamine also functions as a reward prediction error signal, that is, the degree to which the value of a reward is unexpected. According to this hypothesis proposed by Montague, Dayan, and Sejnowski, rewards that are expected do not produce a second phasic dopamine response in certain dopaminergic cells, but rewards that are unexpected, or greater than expected, produce a short-lasting increase in synaptic dopamine, whereas the omission of an expected reward actually causes dopamine release to drop below its background level.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#33
post #7

I think this is a good example of how we mix up concepts: ADHD is just a phenotype. Then, our society classifies it as a condition because it does not go well with current circumstances. Although, both are separate things.

No it's not. It's a disability with very serious consequences for the lifespan of people affected. Please don't repeat this pointless pseudoscientific bs. This link contains a good starting point to understanding what science knows about it. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342...

I mean, I'm sure it could be if it were a serious enough case, but the ADHD that I was diagnosed with is nothing more than the inability to do shit that I find boring. It's a career limiting inconvenience.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long does 70mg Elvanse last for you?

Generally I feel like my brain is winding down at around 11pm usually, after taking them somewhere between 7 and 9am (depending on when I pick up my phone and see the reminder to take them) Every so often I swear they've chucked a few placebos in there and I still manage to get nothing done, but aye a decent ~12 hours or so of focus/dopamine most days

This sounds great, wish it was like this for me...

> Every so often I swear they've chucked a few placebos in there and I still manage to get nothing done, but aye a decent ~12 hours or so of focus/dopamine most days

Perfect, I'm not the only who experiences this haha

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an actual consensus on what ADHD _is_, besides a catch-all for some common concentration and hyperactivity symptoms? People online assert a lot of things, such as "it's a dysfunction of dopamine pathways", "it's genetic", "it's a sort of autism", "it's a brain chemistry problem". But never anything that looked like a real definition backed by good science. My own psychiatrist's diagnosis was a bunch of obvio…

To answer your question: Not that I know of. To waffle freely: I believe it's lower than normal background levels of dopamine. Obligatory disclaimer I am in no way a doctor or scientist. This is probably wrong. Pinches of salt all round. This is a theory I'm kicking around now and then but I don't have the knowledge to confirm/deny the hypothesis yet. When a normal person tackles a regular task they'll get a little s…

This is basically the pop science explanation of ADHD. There is actually no scientific explanation for it.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to your opinion, which evolutionary advantage would something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia provide to your group?

Someone posted an article a while ago that claimed the ratio of people with ADHD, autism, etc. lined up with Dunbar’s number (the theoretical preferred size of a social group) so that there would be about one individual per group with these traits. The article then went on to theorize that this was an evolutionary adaptation against total conformity. Even if everyone else doesn’t see the landslide in the distance the…

As someone with ADHD, I've often mused this. It would absolutely suck to have a tribe of nothing but ADHD folks, but having just a couple around to think outside the box would be pretty damn helpful.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#37
post #7

I think this is a good example of how we mix up concepts: ADHD is just a phenotype. Then, our society classifies it as a condition because it does not go well with current circumstances. Although, both are separate things.

No it's not. It's a disability with very serious consequences for the lifespan of people affected. Please don't repeat this pointless pseudoscientific bs. This link contains a good starting point to understanding what science knows about it. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342...

> It's a disability with very serious consequences for the lifespan of people affected.

I think this is the case for those with severe ADHD. They can't really function at all in modern society, it's a severe impediment.

Vast majority of ADHD (esp. adult adhd cases, where childhood symptoms were not obvious) are nothing like that. I think this is where the idea of it being a phenotype comes in, for the mild/moderate ADHD cases.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#38
post #18
post #7

I think this is a good example of how we mix up concepts: ADHD is just a phenotype. Then, our society classifies it as a condition because it does not go well with current circumstances. Although, both are separate things.

I feel adhd is only a diagnosis beacause society demands to much attention/focus; I've once told my therapist if flying was required to be part of the society my diagnosis would be unwinged

It’d probably be more like, most people have wings and not having wings negatively affects the lives of most wingless people, so it’s a disorder.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#39
post #31

I find that 10mg of a Concerta derivative make me enjoy the positive aspects of my disorder -- ADHD inattentive type -- while preventing the negatives. I was already a working adult when I first tried medicating and it's been a life changing experience. I take one dose on a weekday morning when I have to concentrate on manual tasks and I skip the dose when I want to use more of my imagination for concept and idea gat…

My partner tried a lot (and went trough weird other diagnosis) and found her solution in simple dextroamphetamine. It's a life changer for her and our relationship as well :) also very cheap as it's no protected substance. Around here many are deemed to get ritalin first or other similarly weird substances which has way more side effects for some than good ol' amphetamine.

I was on Adderall for about 10 years, when I moved to Asia I discovered 'amphs are banned, so they put me on Ritalin. Holy mother of god how people tolerate that stuff is beyond me. Over the course of an hour, I'd oscillate between wanting to go to the gym, anger, and horny. Had to discontinue using it for fear I'd kill someone during the anger phase. I've tried many substanced but I gotta say... Ritalin is high on the list of weird drugs for me.

Re: ADHD may have been an evolutionary advantage, research suggests

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an actual consensus on what ADHD _is_, besides a catch-all for some common concentration and hyperactivity symptoms? People online assert a lot of things, such as "it's a dysfunction of dopamine pathways", "it's genetic", "it's a sort of autism", "it's a brain chemistry problem". But never anything that looked like a real definition backed by good science. My own psychiatrist's diagnosis was a bunch of obvio…

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342...

Thanks for that paper, but I find it weird:

- There is no common definition of ADHD, just a list of two hundred unrelated claims made by papers that were found with a search engine. That makes them impossible to compare or relate to each other. This is not a review that concludes anything, just "look at our HUNDREDS of sources!" Basically shock and awe.

- What kind of paper brags about how many continents approved of them? Is this some kind of claim to authority? Why do I care that "366 people" agree with it? In particular, why is this the entirety of their "results" summary?

- The very first highlight is "ADHD occurs in 5.9 % of youth and 2.5 % of adults." I find it ridiculous to dump such a precise number as their main claim when the rates vary so much depending on whether one uses the DSM or ICD, which country one lives in, and which doctor one see. My personal experience with a recently-minted psychiatrist from a reputable university doesn't give me confidence in any kinds of incidence rates either: the state of the art of diagnostic criteria seems to be a questionnaire a 12-year-old could fake.

- In a hypothetical world in which ADHD were known to be an ill-defined "syndrome" with no scientific basis, I would be surprised if "The World Federation of ADHD International Consensus" admitted to it. You don't organize a large international conference to make your subfield less reputable.

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