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How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

cremieux.xyz

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#21
post #3

It's obviously anecdotical but I know both many smart persons without higher level education and many 'not-so-bright' persons with university degrees. However, all those with degrees have parents with degrees and those without come from lower class, for the lack of better term, families. If your parents have never set foot in an university and worked manual labor all their live, you are less likely to even consider h…

My delineation between those with degrees and those without has always been the type of feedback received through the learning process.

Those with degrees tend to be great with theory, but lacking in practice or application. Mind you, they are otherwise pretty bright people, so I don't fault them. They simply didn't get the corrective feedback needed along every step that tends to come with putting an idea into practice. I think of the engineers I work with daily as I write this. They can design new product in CAD all day, but have never built one, which hampers the implementation of their design in the real world and frustrates them.

Those who learned by doing, as opposed to 'studying to the test' such as myself will have a much stronger grasp on the ways things might go wrong (or in some cases, not actually be possible even though it works on paper or in simulation) and be better prepared for it. However, we also tend to have considerable gaps in our theoretical knowledge, and tend to try to make up for it by our ability to quickly adapt or problem solve.

Combined, I'd say the two types of people do make a good team, so long as each is compensating for the others deficiencies in a mutually beneficial way. I rather like the engineers I work with, and they seem to like me, so together, we are pretty valuable to each other and our employers. With other teams, I see this relationship break down when one side starts with the "they don't know anything" attitude.

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#22
post #5

Is IQ everything that counts? Does the family's social class count or not? Does the socioeconomic situation of the state, country, neighborhood count or not? Does fashions, wars, crises, recessions, mass layoffs, drugs permitted by states, industrial changes, friends, political changes, city councils, police and judges, corruption, monetary funds, teachers, management of study centers, laws, banks and what not... cou…

You come out guns blazing about how IQ isn't the only thing, but then get twisted about "working with Linux" somehow being any way related to degrees and then claim to have found many degree havers to be very low IQ. Kind a think you should take stock again and reconsider what you think IQ is and what it means. Hint: it has nothing to do with using Linux.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

In my time (20 years ago) computer related Degrees didn't teach Linux (again, here in Spain).

I, years after leaving formal education, without any degree, have been giving talks at universities to engineering students.

My reference to linux was not 100% related to the IQ... but I did want to talk about working in tech and degrees, which I think, depending on the company/industry, may be a signal for me (rather than be 8 hours screwing the same screw in a car chain). By that I don't mean there is not people with a high IQ in a chain (even there is lot of people with a degree in car chains).

Of course, maybe I'm totally wrong, thanks for pointing that.

Update: To complete... what may affect IQ? education changes? can a person educated one way or another, develop different IQ? physiological (ADN, etc) changes? can mutations over generations change the medium IQ? social changes? can the environment, habits and traditions during the formative stage of a person affect the IQ? I think so... maybe I should start by asking: what doesn't affect the IQ of a person?

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#23
post #5

Is IQ everything that counts? Does the family's social class count or not? Does the socioeconomic situation of the state, country, neighborhood count or not? Does fashions, wars, crises, recessions, mass layoffs, drugs permitted by states, industrial changes, friends, political changes, city councils, police and judges, corruption, monetary funds, teachers, management of study centers, laws, banks and what not... cou…

You come out guns blazing about how IQ isn't the only thing, but then get twisted about "working with Linux" somehow being any way related to degrees and then claim to have found many degree havers to be very low IQ. Kind a think you should take stock again and reconsider what you think IQ is and what it means. Hint: it has nothing to do with using Linux.

It seems like they are just giving background on what they do for a living for added context before stating that they have encountered low IQ people with degrees in their field.

How you got that somehow they are comparing Linux to IQ is above me; perhaps I am just too low IQ to understand.

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#24
I would make the argument that what passes for education has gone down drastically. People aren't getting smarter on the path to getting degrees.

Look at Harvard today. One of the US's premier institutions has lost its way when it comes to academic rigor being one of its primary functions.

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#25
post #8

These results are to be expected, if IQ is normally distributed, but we push more people into obtaining university degrees. The value of a university degree has severely deteriorated since every white collar job essentially requires having one and it will continue getting worse. I would assume that it's worse in the US than in Europe, because in EU it seems that education is less commercialized and you can get a degr…

The trends for HS and Dropout are also negative. To me it implies education across the board is getting worse (assuming IQ is a good measure of “good” education).

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#26

Interesting, I didn't know about this effect. However the analysis seems to implicitly assume that a person's IQ remains constant as they move up the educational ladder. This does not seem right, assuming that education system works as it should (ie, exposing students to harder and harder issues over time), and also because people should still naturally develop intellectually after high school.

I've always understood IQ to be similar to the "horse power" of your brain.

Filling the brain with more facts, and learning more quick routes and tricks, will, surely, make you arrive at a conclusion faster, but the raw Horse Power of your brain/internal engine is not going to get any higher.

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#28
post #19

Answering the title only, so forgive me: > How smart do you have to be to get a degree? Not especially, what you have to be is hardworking and committed. You don't even need to show significant improvement; just an understanding of the subject material. Of course this gets less true as you go up the degrees. (Batchelors requiring a broad rote understanding, Masters requiring a more detailed understanding and PhD requ…

I could have written this exact post. It contains every point I would have made, including "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard" which was my mantra for a long time. As well as my sister not being 'smart' but very hard-working and doing infinitely better than me despite having much lower test scores.

The only thing that (eventually!) got me through my bachelors degree was thinking "If you just put one foot in front of the other, you'll get there eventually (assuming you are walking on a sphere and not perfectly along a meridian)".

People asked me if you needed to be smart to get my degree (one of the big-4 engineering degrees) ... I always said "No, just stubborn."

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#29
post #5

Is IQ everything that counts? Does the family's social class count or not? Does the socioeconomic situation of the state, country, neighborhood count or not? Does fashions, wars, crises, recessions, mass layoffs, drugs permitted by states, industrial changes, friends, political changes, city councils, police and judges, corruption, monetary funds, teachers, management of study centers, laws, banks and what not... cou…

> Is IQ everything that counts?

H*ll, no...but it's an easily obtained, one-dimensional number. Which pushes lots of people's buttons. So it's near-perfect if you want people to pay attention to your pretty graphs and glib conclusions.

I suspect a better number (for "good prospect for college?" questions) would be some measure of how willing & able a student is to sit and study (vs. be physically active, do real-world work, and interact socially). At least back when I went to college, there were lots of brilliant flakes. Their HS grades and admission test scores made them look like potential Ph.D's. But their inability to really study, for college-level classes, meant that they flunked out in a year or two.

Re: How smart do you have to be to get a degree?

#30
tl;dr

If you don't select for IQ on input, you don't get IQ on output. Putting more people through university doesn't change this. It just devalues a degree as a marker of relative intelligence.

This is called "failing" by some people, and technically it isn't (because numbers.) But socially and culturally perhaps it is.

Author suggests at the end that we should spend less time educating people. But - rather obviously - if more of the population goes to university, education for them is being extended to graduation.

So you have kids spending more time being educated, leaving with a less useful qualification.

What's missing is any discussion of how this affects the culture, the work force, and the quality of universities themselves. Is there any evidence it's easier for relatively low-IQ people to become university professors or managers? How does that affect outcomes? What does it mean for employment and economic stability and output?

Overall a blizzard of graphs, but rather superficial analysis.

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