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The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

arxiv.org

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#31

Could it be that this behavior is just caused by numerical issues and/or randomness in the calculation, rather than a real property of neural networks?

Fractals are not caused by randomness. Fractals arise from scale invariance and self similarity, which in turn can come from non linear systems and iterative processes. It is very easy to generate fractals in practice and even the most vanilla neural networks trivially fulfill the requirements (at least when you look at training output). In that sense it would be weird not to find fractal structures when you look har…

Not exactly, Newton's fractal, which is topological, specifically the wada property, is a boundary condition.

It relates to fractal (non-integer) dimensions, which was first described by Mandelbrot in a paper about self similarity.

Here is a paper that covers some of that.

https://www.minvydasragulskis.com/sites/default/files/public...

In Newton's fractal, no matter how small a circle you can draw, your circle will either contain one root or all the roots.

The basins that contain one root are open sets that share a boundary set.

Even if you could have perfect information and precision this property holds. This means any change in initial conditions that crosses a boundary will be indeterminate.

There is another feature called riddled basins, where every point is arbitrarily close to other basins. This is another situation where even with perfect information and unlimited precision a perturbations would be indeterminate.

A positive Laponov exponent which isn't sufficient to prove chaos, but is always positive in the presence of chaos may even be 0 or negative in the above situations.

Take the typical predator prey model and add fear and refuge and you hit the riddled basins.

Stack four reflective balls in a pyramid and shine different color lights in two sides and you will see the Wada property.

Neither of those problems are addressable with the assumption of deterministic effects with finite precision.

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#32
post #19

I am not trying to downplay the contribution of the paper, but isn't it obvious that this is the case?

Obvious to whom?

I think the "obvious" comment was a bit snarky, but out of curiosity, I posed the question to the Groq website which currently happens to be on the front page right now. (It claims to run Mixtral 8x7B-32k at 500 T/s)

And indeed, the AI response indicated that the boundary between convergence and divergence is not well defined, has many local maxima and minima, and could be quote: "fractal or chaotic, with small changes in hyperparameters leading to drastically different outcomes."

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#33
> Some fractals -- for instance those associated with the Mandelbrot and quadratic Julia sets -- are computed by iterating a function, and identifying the boundary between hyperparameters for which the resulting series diverges or remains bounded. Neural network training similarly involves iterating an update function (e.g. repeated steps of gradient descent), can result in convergent or divergent behavior, and can be extremely sensitive to small changes in hyperparameters. Motivated by these similarities, we experimentally examine the boundary between neural network hyperparameters that lead to stable and divergent training. We find that this boundary is fractal over more than ten decades of scale in all tested configurations.

Reading this gave me goosebumps

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#35
post #19

I am not trying to downplay the contribution of the paper, but isn't it obvious that this is the case?

I'll defend the idea that it was obvious. (Although, it wasn't obvious to me until someone pointed it out, so maybe that's not obvious.)

If you watch this video[0], you'll see in the first frame that there is a clear boundary between learning rates that converge or not. Ignoring this paper for a moment, what if we zoom in really really close to that boundary? There are two possibilities, either (1) the boundary is perfectly sharp no matter how closely we inspect it, or (2) it is a little bit fuzzy. Of those two possibilities, the perfectly sharp boundary would be more surprising.

[0]: https://x.com/jaschasd/status/1756930242965606582

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#36

One of Wofram's comments is that there appears to be much more internal structure in language semantics that we had expected, contra-Chomsky. We also know the brain, cortex esp, is highly recurrent, so it should be primed for creating fractals and chaotic mixing. So maybe the hidden structure is the set of neural hyperparams needed to put a given cluster of neurons into fractal/chaotic oscillations like this. Seems p…

Per some offline discussion, I'll note that while this paper is about the structure of hyperparams, it also starts with the analogy between Mandelbrot & Julia sets, Julia as the hyperparam space for Mandelbrot, the param space

Well, they both also have similar fractal dimensions. Mandlebrot's Hausdorff dimension is 2, Julia is 1-2.

I won't argue it here but just suggest that this is an important complexity relationship and that the neural net being fit may also have similar fractal complexity, and that the distinction between param and hyper-param in this sense may be somewhat a red-herring

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#37

This is much more interesting if you see the animations. https://x.com/jaschasd/status/1756930242965606582

So what exactly are we looking at here? Did the authors only use two hyperparameters for the purpose of this visualization?

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#38
post #3

Reposting comment from last time since I'm still curious: This is really fun to see. I love toy experiments like this. I see that each plot is always using the same initialization of weights, which presumably makes it possible to have more smoothness between each pixel. I also would guess it's using the same random seed for training (shuffling data). I'd be curious to know what the plots would look like with a differ…

I think if you used a random seed for weights and training data order, and reran the experiment enough times to average out the noise, then the resulting charts would then be smooth with no fractal patterns.

Do you consider the random seed (or by extension the randomized initial weights) a hyperparameter?

Re: The boundary of neural network trainability is fractal

#39

One of Wofram's comments is that there appears to be much more internal structure in language semantics that we had expected, contra-Chomsky. We also know the brain, cortex esp, is highly recurrent, so it should be primed for creating fractals and chaotic mixing. So maybe the hidden structure is the set of neural hyperparams needed to put a given cluster of neurons into fractal/chaotic oscillations like this. Seems p…

Two quibbles: (1) neural nets don’t necessarily operate on language, (2) they only loosely model biological neurons in that they operate in discrete space. All that is to say that any similarities are purely incidental without accounting for these two facts.
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