Live data from Hacker News

Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

scottaaronson.blog

31–38 of 38 posts

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#31
post #30
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> implies fractional applications of the arithmetic operators Does it? Where does this implication come from?

You can’t generate a continuum without log/exp

So log/exp or partial operators? And what do you mean by "generate a continuum"? Both log and exp are formulated without the need for complex numbers.

Real numbers are a field for +-/ (although not a group for / because zero is weird).

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#32
This is in the context of QM, and that should be included in the title. "Why are amplitudes complex numbers" is meaningless, unless it's clear from the context that we're talking about QM amplitudes. I would suggest "Why are amplitudes [in quantum mechanics] complex numbers?"

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#33
post #4

A simpler preliminary question would be, why are complex numbers present in non quantum wave mechanics, and then how does this compare and contrast to quantum mechanics.

> A simpler preliminary question would be, why are complex numbers present in non quantum wave mechanics

I'm not sure there's anything deep here. Imaginary exponentials contain sines and cosines and so are the solution to a lot of differential equations, even in the complex solutions have no physical interpretations. See e.g. the case of electromagnetism.

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do matrices with complex numbers 'mean physically'?

The measurement operators are matrices that come about as a result of assigning real eigenvalues (these are your possible measurement outcomes) to orthonormal vectors (your arbitrary coordinate system). The results are hermitian, complex-valued matrices, because that's just what comes out if you try to engineer a matrix to have those eigenvalues and vectors. The rest follows from that. Trying to fit a real number con…

Can you elaborate on the physical meaning that follows?

I just don't see how it links up with something tangible in the real world.

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#35
This seems to me as backward reasoning. Maxwell’s equations were descriptive of an observational phenomena, which was electromagnetic oscillation, and Schroedinger’s equations used amplitudes to unify them as an energy conservation law. The author asks “why not quaternions”, and gives the reasons, for which he concludes that complex numbers must be the only fabric of the universe. This is backward reasoning, and also narrow to the author’s specialty. Quaternions are just one of many choices for a 4th-degree extension field of the reals, where complex are the only choice of 2nd degree extension. Yang-Mills theory uses Lie algebras of higher degree to form an energy conservation law that unifies the observations of electromagnetism with other observations made at high energy, of which the complex numbers of electromagnetism are a subset.

The article appears to suggest that QM phenomena exist because of the mathematical curiosities of the complex numbers applied to linear operators. Its not my place to say whether the universe “is” mathematics, but I do feel comfortable using math as an attempt to describe it, and there may be many choices, but our convention generally is to choose the description that eliminates possibilities that are rejected experimentally, and many such may be required, but our secondary preference is to choose the smallest set of descriptions that contain the observations.

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The measurement operators are matrices that come about as a result of assigning real eigenvalues (these are your possible measurement outcomes) to orthonormal vectors (your arbitrary coordinate system). The results are hermitian, complex-valued matrices, because that's just what comes out if you try to engineer a matrix to have those eigenvalues and vectors. The rest follows from that. Trying to fit a real number con…

Can you elaborate on the physical meaning that follows? I just don't see how it links up with something tangible in the real world.

The complex numbers in the matrices appear as a consequence of trying to do something else. I don't think they have much physical meaning on their own, which is why I am surprised that people ask what it would mean if they had to all be real numbers.

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on the physical meaning that follows? I just don't see how it links up with something tangible in the real world.

The complex numbers in the matrices appear as a consequence of trying to do something else. I don't think they have much physical meaning on their own, which is why I am surprised that people ask what it would mean if they had to all be real numbers.

The parent 'sw1sh' didn't ask that? Do you mean some sort of critique found elsewhere?

Re: Why are amplitudes complex numbers? (2018)

#38
Amplitudes are complex numbers, because periodic signals exhibit phase.

The modulus ("complex absolute value") gives us the amplitude, and the angle encodes phase.

The way we usually encode phase is that it's frequency dependent. π or 180° of phase corresponds to a frequency-dependent amount of time.

At any frequency, sine and cosine waves are at 90 degrees from each other, forming a quadrature.

This 90 degrees has not only frequency and time interpretation, but a vector interpretation. If we chop the signal into samples to make a vector of numbers, the sine and cosine vectors will be at 90 degrees in the sense that their cross product is zero. I.e. actually perpendicular in the N-space they inhabit.

Under Fourier analysis, we are projecting the signal onto these basis vectors: how much of the sin, and how much of the cos.

We can combine the sine and cosine into a complex number thanks to Euler's formula e(ix) = cos(x) + i sin(x). By imagining the signal as being in polar coordinates, where its phase angle is the angle around the complex plane, and amplitude is the modulus, we simplify and condense the math. The two vectors at 90 degrees apart are combined into one vector of complex numbers for us to deal with.

So "how much of this signal correlates with sin(x)" gives us the imaginary component, and "how much of this signal correlates with cos(x)" gives us the real component. We can just add these together to make a complex number. Its argument (angle) gives us the phase, and modulus the amplitude.

Post reply on HN