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Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

danluu.com

111–120 of 216 posts

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#111
post #82

This is easy to fix. Make Amazon responsible for warranting all sales on their platform. Amazon claims they are not the seller, some anonymous party running an ad on their platform is the seller. That was litigated in Pennsylvania, and when it got to the level that Amazon was looking at a major lose, Amazon settled to avoid a precedent. On the ad front, anyone who runs an ad for a third party should have to be able t…

This is basically regulatory capture for the fraudsters. Fraudsters will have forums full of ID fraud services to fix their KYC problem. Big platforms won't blink at the costs involved with verification. Fraudsters will simply rinse and repeat when their scheme collapses.

Normal business people will have yet another headache. Corner cases will exist where users are condemned to unending bureaucratic limbo. A human support person, if they exist at all, will repeat a meaningless mantra, "I'm sorry sir, we've been unable to verify your identity with the documents provided. This is a compliance requirement as per the online platform safety act of 2026"

All the while, scammers will be churning out new KYC'd accounts. The process will have nothing to do with safety, as the platform will only care about complying with the new regulation. Don't forget that Amazon still earns fees from each sale. Large platforms will enjoy the compliance requirements as an additional barrier to entry for competitors.

Not to mention the inevitable day when all of that personal data is released. Breeches exposed for all to see. Another headache the fraudsters won't have. The regulars of the ID fraud forum will probably enjoy it.

I could start my own VC fund if I had $1 for every post on HN claiming, "It is so simple and easy! We can fix this with more government!" It is never so simple when you are dealing with humans and incentives. Human societies are not codebases you can just patch to eliminate bugs.

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine having latents on posters, poster-persona-moods, posts, raters, rater-persona-moods, ratings, latent space curations, and user preferences and moods. User: "AI, what's my current reading status?" AI:"We're on your EveningSurfMood2, emphasizing StuffFromFriends, and your EclecticTopicsLarge (with Dang's HighQ Discussion v3, Alice12's Clueful Author Making Coherent Argument Filter, and hugging's UnusuallyInsigh…

That sounds genuinely hideous. Is this like, meant to be a good feature???

Not wonderful UX, but intended to illustrate underlying capabilities. A collaborative composable community ecosystem of recommendation, vs status-quo black-box recommendation engines and vote-with-your-feet "personalization".

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#113
> "these systems have to be fully automated because no one could afford to operate manual systems at our scale", what's really being said is more along the lines of "we would not be able to generate as many billions a year in profit if we hired enough competent people to manually review cases our system should flag as ambiguous, so we settle for what we can get without compromising profits".

well anything that comes out of any business has these intentions for sure, but statements could be like multi-dimensional vectors, they could be doing 2 things at once

the ROI for fraud is low for a smaller platform and so it doesn't happen for smaller scale companies as much as it does for bigger scale. but given the interested party who is explicitly looking for the target cohort even the smaller platforms see the fraud

so even if social media as whole were to split into multiple entities, the ROI would still make sense for fraudsters to continue the fraud.

even if you have 1000s of entities, there would be a startup who can build a wrapper out of those 1000s of entities to make the fraud ROI possible. just like how there are businesses that offer scraping competitors

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#114

The problem with internet fraud is that no one is really trying to make the fraudsters accountable for their actions, instead what they’re doing is essentially “shoo’ing them away”, and fraudsters after being shoo’ed away simply try again until they, almost invariably, eventually do succeed. Subsequently, the industry of fraud is generally lucrative and is thus constantly growing. When I worked at Blizzard, there wer…

and the companies have no incentive to investigate fraud further once it has stopped, especially if they fraudsters are international.

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#115

The problem with internet fraud is that no one is really trying to make the fraudsters accountable for their actions, instead what they’re doing is essentially “shoo’ing them away”, and fraudsters after being shoo’ed away simply try again until they, almost invariably, eventually do succeed. Subsequently, the industry of fraud is generally lucrative and is thus constantly growing. When I worked at Blizzard, there wer…

From the article:

>And if I ask who do I trust more, my local reputable electronics shop (Memory Express, B&H Photo, etc.), I trust my local reputable electronics shop more. Not only are they less likely to sell me a counterfeit than Best Buy, in the event that they do sell me a counterfeit, the service is likely to be better.

An international, multi-government taskforce is one solution, potentially. Maybe not. For the problem presented at the top of the article, shopping locally seems like an easy win in comparison.

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#116

The problem with internet fraud is that no one is really trying to make the fraudsters accountable for their actions, instead what they’re doing is essentially “shoo’ing them away”, and fraudsters after being shoo’ed away simply try again until they, almost invariably, eventually do succeed. Subsequently, the industry of fraud is generally lucrative and is thus constantly growing. When I worked at Blizzard, there wer…

I think we don't hold them accountable for the same reason we generally accept panhandlers (which is usually technically illegal in most jurisdictions). If we hold them accountable, where do we send them? Jail? Does that actually fix the problem, or does it just hide it under a societal rug?

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#117
post #82

This is easy to fix. Make Amazon responsible for warranting all sales on their platform. Amazon claims they are not the seller, some anonymous party running an ad on their platform is the seller. That was litigated in Pennsylvania, and when it got to the level that Amazon was looking at a major lose, Amazon settled to avoid a precedent. On the ad front, anyone who runs an ad for a third party should have to be able t…

> Amazon settled to avoid a precedent

Maybe that's the true problem. At some point courts should stop settlements from happening due to the value of precedents to society as a whole.

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#119

The problem with internet fraud is that no one is really trying to make the fraudsters accountable for their actions, instead what they’re doing is essentially “shoo’ing them away”, and fraudsters after being shoo’ed away simply try again until they, almost invariably, eventually do succeed. Subsequently, the industry of fraud is generally lucrative and is thus constantly growing. When I worked at Blizzard, there wer…

Well what can you do? Trace their IP back to a VPN or web of proxies? Or more likely grandmas infected Windows XP computer? Then what? Start kicking doors down?

Going to get the FBI involved for a $20 purchase?

Reminds me of Lebowski asking the cops about his Credence tape.

Re: Diseconomies of scale in fraud, spam, support, and moderation

#120
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KYC just incentivizes discrimination. Eventually ends up with innocent people not being able to get bank accounts or rent hotel rooms because they get associated with prior probabilities that do not necessarily apply to them, aka discrimination. Punishing scammers to dissuade and reduce the quantity of scammers is the government’s job and should not be laid on businesses, for a well functioning high trust society. If…

This is nonsense. Businesses are not above the law and claiming that you are only a proxy or that what you do is too complex shouldn't get you out of having to follow those laws. We're talking KYC (or direct liability) for businesses here. There is nothing discriminatory about it.

I specifically wrote why know your customer laws are bad.

A law that makes a bank liable for their customer’s illegal actions harms people who kind of sort of look like they could be doing something illegal, even if they are innocent. Plainly discriminatory.

A law that makes hotels liable for human trafficking harms people who “look” like human traffickers. Guess what, now people who want to pay with cash or don’t have an ID or don’t fit whatever other profile are no longer welcome at a hotel. Again, obviously discriminatory since people who didn’t do anything illegal are being punished.

These aren’t made up examples, these are real life examples. The government is literally telling a business they have to judge someone without the person being able to provide a defense, like they would in a court of law.

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