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Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

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Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#51

Post by qgin »

yakau wrote: post #23

Capitalism is inherently flawed as it relies on infinite growth in a finite world, to put it simply.

The material world is finite, yes, but capitalism doesn't rely on infinite material growth. Most growth of the economy in United States has been relatively dematerialized.

Services, software, entertainment, education, information... while these aren't 100% free from material constraints, it's not like the economy is growing primarily by digging ever more rocks out of the ground. The majority of the value comes from abstractions.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#52

Post by paulryanrogers »

nytesky wrote: post #33
zer00eyz wrote: post #6

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that it does not account for every corporation that came before tech. What about RCA, GE, Westinghouse? What about US Steel, what about Standard Oil, what about AT&T. IBM, Intel have already started to fall. What makes this crop of companies any different than all the ones that has come before them. Nothing. The singer sewing machine came out at 125 bucks per unit. The annual…

ATT was broken up by antitrust.

And Standard Oil

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#53

Post by snapplebobapple »

I don't know why I read articles from Jacobin when they are posted on hacker news. The decision tree in my head goes something like "Well, it's jacobin, so it's either going to say something that sounds witty while completely missing the point or outright be some really stupid marxist BS... But I respect hacker news these guys aren't going to be tricked by stupid marxist BS or not notice that they have completely missed the point..." and then I read the article and every freaking time, you guys have been tricked by sounding witty while completely missing the point!

No, we are not transitioning to silicon serfdom, it's just the same old BS where a monopolist has built or stumbled upon a competitive mote and is rent seeking.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#54

Post by snapplebobapple »

sdenton4 wrote: post #10
zer00eyz wrote: post #6

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that it does not account for every corporation that came before tech. What about RCA, GE, Westinghouse? What about US Steel, what about Standard Oil, what about AT&T. IBM, Intel have already started to fall. What makes this crop of companies any different than all the ones that has come before them. Nothing. The singer sewing machine came out at 125 bucks per unit. The annual…

Did you not read the article? The premise is that the current tech giants are effectively only wanting to set up situations where they can extract rents. This is different from making sewing machines in a competitive market, or even in a monopoly. I think the argument has problems for other reasons - there's still lots of innovation going on, for example - but I think there is a line to be drawn between current vc pr…

umm... a monopoly is literally a rent seeker, that's what a monopoly is good for. If you aren't rent seeking you wasted a ton of time and money on becoming a monopoly for no reason. The only thing new here is that the marxists have found a new way to miss the point.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#55

Post by yakau »

qgin wrote: post #51
yakau wrote: post #23

Capitalism is inherently flawed as it relies on infinite growth in a finite world, to put it simply.

The material world is finite, yes, but capitalism doesn't rely on infinite material growth. Most growth of the economy in United States has been relatively dematerialized. Services, software, entertainment, education, information... while these aren't 100% free from material constraints, it's not like the economy is growing primarily by digging ever more rocks out of the ground. The majority of the value comes from a…

Ask yourself what will occur when natural resources are no longer feasible to supply at the rate they are now, such as Oil or vital resources to produce electrical components.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#56

Post by Anotheroneagain »

dragontamer wrote: post #24
Anotheroneagain wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that everyone began to realize that it must end sooner or later, especially after Evergrande's collapse. Nobody's going to live in those houses. What would you want to reverse for what reason?

America is not China. China built a ton of fake houses all around. America in contrast has too few houses, an influx of immigrants (both legal and illegal), and an entire generation of young 20-to-30s year olds who want a house before they start raising a family. The houses are clearly needed here in America. Its not like China's Evergrande fake-house bullshit. When my terrible childhood home in the Ghetto is selling…

The houses aren't fake. They were bought as an investment (it isn't uncommon in China to own several) with no people to live in them. The rest of the world hasn't collapsed yet, but the problem is the same. You can imagine it as Bitcoin: it has no value, but the prices stay high as long as people pour more money in than they pull out.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#57

Post by qgin »

yakau wrote: post #55
qgin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The material world is finite, yes, but capitalism doesn't rely on infinite material growth. Most growth of the economy in United States has been relatively dematerialized. Services, software, entertainment, education, information... while these aren't 100% free from material constraints, it's not like the economy is growing primarily by digging ever more rocks out of the ground. The majority of the value comes from a…

Ask yourself what will occur when natural resources are no longer feasible to supply at the rate they are now, such as Oil or vital resources to produce electrical components.

Oil gets less relevant with every decade. We're probably within 50 years now of fusion power. Electrical components can be recycled once the economics make it the best option. It's pretty reasonable to think today's limits aren't the limits forever.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#58

Post by Gud »

j-j-j-j wrote: post #50
greenhexagon wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one is forcing anyone to host stuff in the cloud, no one is forcing anyone to use Gmail Contrast with: https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-... Even someone, with expert skills, decades of experience and the time, energy and willpower to try to do it on their own, can't.

Sure email became terribly centralized to the point of self-hosting being near impossible. Primarily because it's super old. But you can still use Protonmail or Fastmail. And email is less important as a communication platform than it ever was . Nowadays it feels like mostly an ID-verification system. If things become bad enough - people will just use something else.

I switched to proton mail myself when Gandi.net started demanding money for my mailbox.

The problem with proton mail, that I later discovered after paying, is that they don’t support IMAP…

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#59

Post by mariusor »

j-j-j-j wrote: post #48

There is no feudalism without violence. No one is forcing anyone to host stuff in the cloud, no one is forcing anyone to use Gmail, no one is forcing anyone to use iPhone or Android device, use Facebook or Twitter, etc. Everybody does it because with their personal calculation they figured out they rather suffer some loss in freedom than spend time on alternatives. There are just some good old fashion monopolies/olig…

> no feudalism without violence

Just because it's not physical violence it does not mean it doesn't exist. Violence was a means by the people with power to coerce the ones without. We have that today in the for of: debt, non equitable contracts, lobbying, etc.

Re: Are We Transitioning from Capitalism to Silicon Serfdom?

#60

Post by yakau »

qgin wrote: post #57
yakau wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask yourself what will occur when natural resources are no longer feasible to supply at the rate they are now, such as Oil or vital resources to produce electrical components.

Oil gets less relevant with every decade. We're probably within 50 years now of fusion power. Electrical components can be recycled once the economics make it the best option. It's pretty reasonable to think today's limits aren't the limits forever.

To become sustainable the population will have to accept changes to lifestyle which they have not shown any sign of willingness to do so. Rates of e-waste increase faster than the rate of e-recycling. As long as capital and profit remains at the incentive it's at now, there likely will be little change.
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