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Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#61

Post by DiscourseFan »

qball wrote: post #54
beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their…

>the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that…

I don't know, 25-30 happens to be the age at which most people are having the most sex (at least statistically), its a time when you are still sharp and horny and haven't gotten bored of chasing sex but you have stupidly high self-confidence and your whole life and the the whole world ahead of you, when you become involved in real industry and make some of the most important social connections in your life.

It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its definitely true that even if those teenagers appear to be polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all the time, how little you really knew about the world, even if you were nice in public. I don't think those basic impressions you get are definitive.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#62

Post by throwanem »

Solvency wrote: post #27
jffhn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30 Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and t…

...so what's your costume?

What's yours?

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#63

Post by ProllyInfamous »

ptsneves wrote: post #42
jffhn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30 Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and t…

Both the op and the answer are great and even the plea is inspiring. OP I am still a parent of 2 toddlers but I came to realise at almost 35 that I was an asshole to my parebts for a long part of my life. It is one of my biggest personal shames. On the other hand I believe such break up is needed to be willing to brave the world independently. We are one weird species, is my conclusion.

>I came to realise at almost 35 that I was an asshole to my parents for a long part of my life.

Two years ago, I helped my mother die (I was then still thirty-something, she was sixty).

In such vulnerable situations, the honesty between our coupling (dying mother to mortal son) left us in a constant stream of mostly-happy tears.

Hearing your mother, on her months-away deathbed, describe you as "a bully, absolutely; sometimes even an asshole. But I love that you mostly bullied assholes, even your most-difficult brother (you could always humiliate him when he NEEDED it) and even me, sometimes, when I was acting out."

RIP, Mom; I miss You immensely, even these two years later, but am so glad we were able to lessen the guilt and share in being human.

>We are one weird species, is my conclusion.

Wishing you well in your futures.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#64

Post by bfncieezo »

anonym29 wrote: post #33
ambyra wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing stuff.

Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.

are you seriously arguing that children are better off in front of a computer than playing sports with their friends?

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#65

Post by tremon »

CrazyStat wrote: post #36
zmgsabst wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iterated prisoner’s dilemma. The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive partners); after that, it’s reciprocating behavior. Teenagers (and many adults) aren’t willing to ally, so we’re left with reciprocating. Until they accept being allies is a good idea.

Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts. It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.

It's not about the specific game nor the specific payout. When raising children, it's more important to teach/demonstrate that negative behaviour does have negative consequences.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#66

Post by michaelmrose »

qball wrote: post #54
beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their…

>the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that…

Pre-industrial society was a horrifying murder fest that gets worse the further you go back with people living in prehistoric societies 9 times more likely to die of violence. One needed to begin taking on responsibility very early both because early societies needed every hand available just to secure enough food but because you might not have long.

The operation of such societies should be regarded as an optimization for current circumstances rather than an optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly suited you are going to have to justify that position on its own merits.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#67

Post by bdjsiqoocwk »

wolverine876 wrote: post #55
beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their…

One essential - existential - skill that children learn is to please ADULTS (Authoritarian Domineering Unseeing Ludicrous Tedious Superhypocritals). Their actual survival (food, shelter, safety), their welfare, their happiness depends extremely on Adults. If you were in their shoes in regard to some authority - especially an authority that behaves as badly as Adults - you would learn too. They learn how to not upset…

Sorry your experience with kids left you so jaded. Not all kids are like that.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#68

Post by bdjsiqoocwk »

bfncieezo wrote: post #64
anonym29 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.

are you seriously arguing that children are better off in front of a computer than playing sports with their friends?

Seriously maybe? What's so special about playing sports with friends? Why is that sooooo important? I never had an interest in sports, and so I made friends with other kids that had no interest in sports.

Re: Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study finds

#70

Post by CrazyStat »

tremon wrote: post #65
CrazyStat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a specific game with specific rules and payouts. It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts are usually quite different.

It's not about the specific game nor the specific payout. When raising children, it's more important to teach/demonstrate that negative behaviour does have negative consequences.

I was responding to a claim about what game theory tells us.
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