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Raising Children on the Eve of AI

juliawise.net

181–190 of 237 posts

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#181

The writer says: “[My children] are more viscerally worried about climate change”. I’m not surprised. I recently heard from a friend that her 7 year-old child had, as a class assignment, to create a timeline setting out the impact of climate change over their lifetime. I was gobsmacked, and feel this amounts to a form of psychological child abuse. It’s a serious problem, don’t get me wrong, but having a small child l…

Calling it child abuse is too far, but I think the real problem is that it sets them up for contrarian beliefs in the future.

When I was younger we were put through similar exercises with “peak oil”. Our teachers taught that we were going to run out of oil and the world was going to be in extreme trouble when fuel was so scarce and unaffordable that our quality of life would collapse, wars would be fought, and the things we enjoyed like being able to travel and heat our homes would become extreme luxuries.

Then none of that happened at all and now a generation of people have learned not to trust extreme claims about the future. This has made people numb to acknowledging real risks, which are generally more boring and subtle than the scare tactics used to pitch them.

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#182
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If robots actually replaced all human labour and left nothing for humans to be employed at, then the robots necessarily can do their own resource extraction. The current cost of a Boston Dynamics Spot is around a year's income, give or take whose income you're measuring against. If it were able to do any human task at the same rate as a human — and yes, I know it isn't, this is just a anchoring point for the discussi…

One of your assumptions is that we will start from 1 robot per year. I believe this is not true. I assume robots will be similar to high end cars in regards to the complexity of manufacturing. Once a company develops a prototype with AGI(mechanically the robots are almost there already, just the control systems and software that's lacking, which is supposed to be solved by AGI) it will rain VC money. The first millio…

> One of your assumptions is that we will start from 1 robot per year.

Not per year, total. And it's not really an assumption, just a demonstration of how fast exponential growth is.

> I assume robots will be similar to high end cars in regards to the complexity of manufacturing.

Agreed. This is also the framing Musk uses for Tesla's androids.

> Once a company develops a prototype with AGI

I don't think it needs a complete solution to AGI, as other people use the term. First, all three letters of that initialism mean different things to different people — by my standard, ChatGPT is already this because it's general over the domain of text, and even if you disagree about specific definitions (as almost everyone reading this will), I think this is the right framing, as you'd "only" need something general over the domain of factory work to be a replacement factory worker, or general over mining and tunnels to be a miner, or general over the domain of roads and road users to be a driver.

This isn't to minimise the complexity of those domains, it's just that something as general as ChatGPT has been for text is probably sufficient.

> The first million will be built by humans. The initial robots will take over the manufacturing only later.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The initial number made by humans is highly dependant on the overall (not just sticker-price) cost and capabilities, so a $200k/year TCO robot that can do 80% of human manual labor tasks is very impressive, but likely to be limited to only a few roles, probably won't replace anyone in its own factory; while one which has total costs of $80k/year and can do 90% might well replace most (but not all) of the humans in its own factory; and one costing $20k/year all-in and which can do 95% might well replace all the factory workers but none of the cobalt miners or the truck drivers.

"Fully general" is the end-state, not the transition period. But with fully-general, which is a necessary condition for nobody having any more work, we get a very fast transition from the status quo to having one robot per human.

> Setting up manufacturing that will be able to produce a million units in 2-3 years is possible. Let's say 5 years for a more plausible situation for a million robots to be built.

Agreed on both.

> Also there is no reason to believe it will be 2^n, it can also be 3^n or 1.1^n or any arbitrary number.

It's a definitional requirement of exponential growth, 2^n units after n doubling periods. I anchored on a the doubling period being a year just by reference to the cost of an example existing robot, and using that dollar cost as a proxy for equivalent human labor, and I specifically noted that the other poster's estimate corresponded to a 5-8 week doubling period which didn't seem unreasonable to me. Some robot can do each specific task 4.2 times slower against the wall clock and still be just as fast as a human overall because it's working 24/7 rather than 8/5.

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#183
post #168
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one is a private gain, one is a public cost. what is confusing about someone pushing AI while trying to slow down their competitors?

> someone pushing AI while trying to slow down their competitors He's specifically doing the exact opposite of that. "Legislate us, don't slow down open source models, don't slow down our competitors, focus on us and anything better than our current best model" (paraphrased). But I guess I can sort of see what you mean, possibly?

You actually believe him?

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#184
post #183
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone pushing AI while trying to slow down their competitors He's specifically doing the exact opposite of that. "Legislate us, don't slow down open source models, don't slow down our competitors, focus on us and anything better than our current best model" (paraphrased). But I guess I can sort of see what you mean, possibly?

You actually believe him?

His actions are in concordance with his words. For now, at least — I've seen enough CEOs turn out to be secret villains to remain somewhat skeptical.

The board firing him last year would have changed my mind about his qualities, if not for all of the board's own choices of replacements siding with him rather than with the board.

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#185
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In five years the world will be identical to the present. In 15, it will be unrecognizable.

My grandparents still recognize the world. they drove cars in their 20s and drive them now. They go shopping at stores much the same as the past. They eat at restaurants much the same as the past. They read books, watch movies much the same as the past. they cook, see friends and family. they live in a house. it still has rooms and furnu much the same as the past. what's changed? more entertainment. easier communicat…

in grocery stores it's harder to pay with just cash.

and now all the menus are qr codes.

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#186
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also say viruses don't work very hard (maybe phages a little bit) and they are quite successful.

I've not given this much thought before, but right now I think viruses do about as much work as their chemistry is physically capable of? (High school middling grades in chemistry and biology, so I may be way off).

Most their work is getting others to do their work for them.

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#187
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not given this much thought before, but right now I think viruses do about as much work as their chemistry is physically capable of? (High school middling grades in chemistry and biology, so I may be way off).

Most their work is getting others to do their work for them.

Yes, indeed, but I still think they're "working hard"? Perhaps it's just a linguistics game though, what counts as "working" and what counts as "hard"?

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#188
post #109
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the examples you gave are lottery-ticket professions, though. And even if a large number of people could be successful entertainers, I'm not even sure about the premise. AI-generated media could compete with YouTubers very soon. AI will take a long, long time to replace garbagemen.

> AI will take a long, long time to replace garbagemen. In some places what holds this back is reliable AI driving. Single driver collection trucks doing all the work with robot arms are common in some places already and we are better for this physically difficult job being done by machines. Today society shares based on your work contribution and it is our sharing that must evolve when less and less work needs to be…

> Today society shares based on your work contribution and it is our sharing that must evolve when less and less work needs to be done.

Strong agree!

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#189
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of your assumptions is that we will start from 1 robot per year. I believe this is not true. I assume robots will be similar to high end cars in regards to the complexity of manufacturing. Once a company develops a prototype with AGI(mechanically the robots are almost there already, just the control systems and software that's lacking, which is supposed to be solved by AGI) it will rain VC money. The first millio…

> One of your assumptions is that we will start from 1 robot per year. Not per year, total. And it's not really an assumption, just a demonstration of how fast exponential growth is. > I assume robots will be similar to high end cars in regards to the complexity of manufacturing. Agreed. This is also the framing Musk uses for Tesla's androids. > Once a company develops a prototype with AGI I don't think it needs a co…

Agreed, More clarification about the first part:

What I want to convey is that the growth function will be somewhat similar to y= c + ax^n (ignoring/collapsing into c the linear and higher order terms) rather than just y= ax^n.

The c here is robots produced via humans. I predict c will easily touch a million in 5 years with or without human help.

Even if the later bots can do only 50% the work of humans, we will still exponentially grow the robots until the humans become a bottleneck. And that 50% capability is also expected to grow exponentially.

Gemini 1.5 pro already beats most humans in most benchmarks, combine it with Sora which has a great visual world model, add some logical reasoning(architecture or scale), memory and embodiment(so it can experiment and test) and you pretty much have the seeds for an agi.

My optimistic/most probable prediction about the growth rate say it's

Regarding the last part:

My bad, I speed read your comment and didn't focus on the exponential calculations. An exponential growth is just x^n. Both x(multiplication rate(?)) and n(units of time) can be manipulated.

Re: Raising Children on the Eve of AI

#190
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most their work is getting others to do their work for them.

Yes, indeed, but I still think they're "working hard"? Perhaps it's just a linguistics game though, what counts as "working" and what counts as "hard"?

I find it tough to describe something not really even living in some ways as "working".
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