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From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

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Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#81
post #68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were slightly more L7 EMs than L7 SWEs every time I looked, but there's nuance to that. If the company decides it needs an L7 EM and nobody is available to promote, they'll hire externally. Your chances of being promoted into that role are reduced by the proportion of L7 EMs who were external hires. The other nuance is that those numbers don't correct for overall tenure, but I don't know how that would change t…

> Finally, getting to L7 EM is maybe 30% in your control and 70% circumstances, but that ratio is IMO inverted for ICs. That sounds like a positive. As an EM, there's a good chance you'll be promoted to L7 via pure luck - with no abnormal amounts of effort, and with no outstanding talent for management. It sucks if you're in the minority which "deserves" the promo (is super hard working and talented), but for everyon…

That's... not actually how that 30/70 statement is meant to be read.

Imagine as a simplified analogy, applying to get into Harvard. Imagine Harvard has 1000 spots to fill, and that there are 10,000 applicants with roughly equivalent credentials (because they all have: near perfect test scores, high GPAs, strong extracurriculars, etc.).

In that environment, one might conclude that, for people who successfully get into Harvard, it was 30% their own skill, and 70% "luck" that the they happen to be semi-randomly picked by the admissions committee who could've easily gone with a nearly-equivalent alternative.

So sure, in that environment, "luck" is a factor, but this is by no means a "free lottery ticket" because the near-equivalent applicants had to work hard and be smart to reach the point of being near-equivalents of each other... So it is with promotions in competitive tech companies at least, where good talent is the norm.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#82

> So, if you're tired of keeping up with the latest hot thing in tech, a management role can provide a well-deserved relief. Do keep an eye on what's happening on the tech side of things, but there's no urgency, and no need to get real deep. This is such a poor advice. In any company that has a dozens customers, your team is likely to face technical problems. When your team faces a problem and you are unable to solve…

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Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#83
I once led a team of PhD level IC's. I had to find them work, keep away the dreamers and keep them happy. I would no joke spend sometimes six hours at a time talking to them individually, playing guidance counselor, playing the role of comforter. I never thought that would land in my job bucket! One of my guys helped win two separate 10 figure deals so my time payed off!

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#84
post #16

I have been a manager four times, twice at FAANGs. I disagree with a lot that the author says: - The ladder isn’t really taller. Most EMs end up clustered at the equivalent of L6/staff engineer. Promotions to senior manager and beyond are situational and rare. Meanwhile, my peers on the engineering ladder get promoted when ready, without needing to wait for the stars to align. (I made it to senior manager, but I was…

I also found it weird that the author thought being an EM is a good path to being an entrepreneur.

Going from zero to one has very little to do with engineering management. Being able to hack out code quickly and being comfortable talking to potential customers (preferably not in that order) are the most important things and not at all related to being an EM. It's no guarantee that you'll get to hire anyone to manage.

And yeah, there are mechanically far fewer management roles than engineering roles, and since the boundary between lead engineer/first line manager is pretty porous in both directions, you're not actually competing with an equivalently smaller pool.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Chasing money in life is utterly stupid long term strategy, if somebody told you this they were lying to you (or deeply unhappy people who went that way and instead of admitting the mistake they just drag others in same pit). Literally everybody who achieved anything serious in life says so. Yes it sucks when you don't have them at all, but once over that they should never be the top priority. Do what you li…

My point is that if you want to remain IC then why limit yourself to stay close to the bottom of the pile when you could aim for better pay and more impactful and interesting work? It's not about chasing money for the sake of it but in the real world more money always helps if you can get it. In this case this also goes with better job satisfaction. A 20x salary increase in 20 years means either fantastic career grow…

20x over the last 20 years is pretty exceptional but 10x would be fairly easy.

You started out at non-tech company at $35k in 2004 (right after the dot com bust) then ended up at a big (non FAANG) tech company in 2024 for $350k.

I’m in that ballpark. Granted I’m staff, but I know seniors making just a little less.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you remain 'senior software engineer' your salary will be constrained by the market range for that position. When you get to the top of the range your salary will only increase in line with inflation/market forces whatever you do. It's not possible to get 20-30% more every time you change job unless you've stayed a long time in your current job and they were taking advantage of you (in which case those 20-30% repr…

> If you remain 'senior software engineer' your salary will be constrained by the market range for that position. The salary range is somewhere from $100k to $600k in the US depending on the company. So if you hit the cap at your current company just move to one that pays more. If you've hit that limit at a top tier company then you can start moving to higher IC roles such as Staff.

"you start moving to higher IC roles such as Staff"

QED.

I don't understand the nitpicking. It is factually impossible to get 20-30% salary increase forever if you move every 2-3 years while remaining at the same level. You'll get to the top end fairly quickly.

The person I replied to who said this has happened to them has only been in the industry 12 years. So, yes, they started as junior, then eng, now senior engineer, they moved maybe 3-4 times. But now if they stay at "senior software engineer" level then things will taper off.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#87

I’m a problem solver and big picture thinker. I like working out the solution and helping solve the obstacles. The role that has always fit the best is “architect”, but it seems to be going away as a title. No matter, the need for the work remains. But I’ve done a few of the other roles over the years. Team Lead/manager, Scrum Master, Product Manager (without the title). Here’s my take. A good manager requires a very…

> A good manager requires a very different skill set to an engineer. The primary skill is to have extremely low neuroticism. The ability to make good decisions and present a calm and rational exterior under prolonged stress.

This is one of the best summaries I have seen. It is also why it feels so similar to parenting: a good manager needs the ability to be the grown-up. This usually involves unfun things like calling out the elephant in the room, letting people air grievances about your decisions in a group, and staying engaged with people even when they're disengaging and pushing you away.

To me, management always felt like it was something that required all my spoons, and it wanted more, no matter how much I gave. I feel this more a lack of fit than something intrinsic to management, though. FWIW I have moderate neuroticism (according to rando Internet surveys). I suspect I'm not good at simply letting things be good enough, and the broadened responsibilities of management present an emotional scaling issue.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#88
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. There’s no way I’m going to hit 1.6M annually when my first job was $80k/year. I’d have to live somewhere with hyper inflation to do it on paper, but that’s just being dishonest with the numbers.

20x increase happened to me as well. My first full-time coding job paid around 2.5k PLN after taxes, while my highest paying job so far paid around 50k PLN after taxes. That was over the span of a bit over 15 years, with low inflation over entire timespan.

Poland falls into the "developing country" category over the time period.

It started out with salaries much lower than in Western Europe and has been catching up since.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#89

> So, if you're tired of keeping up with the latest hot thing in tech, a management role can provide a well-deserved relief. Do keep an eye on what's happening on the tech side of things, but there's no urgency, and no need to get real deep. This is such a poor advice. In any company that has a dozens customers, your team is likely to face technical problems. When your team faces a problem and you are unable to solve…

If you want to build a decent team, you really have to relax your grip on the tech part.

You don't fix every problem yourself, but have someone who can fix it available. Otherwise, people don't grow, and you can't take a vacation. You totally need a general (middle / senior level) understanding of technology, but having a separate person with strong technical chops is key.

> In which company does this happen, I wonder!

As a staff engineer on a design system for a top 50 website, roughly half my job was detailing a tech roadmap and identifying what can break across the codebase, something you can do perfectly well on grass.

Re: From engineer to manager: what I love, what I hate

#90
> If you don't have anything urgent, you can go lay on the grass for half a day, thinking about the future of your project or something

Is this something common? I'm working as IC at FAANG for 6+ years in different teams, but I've never really experienced something like this. I've always been working on stuff that should have been finished yesterday.

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