It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#2Apps are standalone user experiences. Native apps play by the operating system's security rules, while web domains operate within the sandbox of the browser. Web apps are just websites in standalone mode. If you misunderstand web apps as some wicked things coming out of your trusted browser to party on your device, you might not see clearly in the Apple vs. EU debate.
Apple just made their true target crystal clear: they have always been aiming at web capabilities: https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/fugu-showcase. We see now: they will do so until they are stopped by legal force.
Apple hides no longer behind browser engine restrictions, they are going after the heart of what lets developers deliver full-fledged app experiences without the need for native installs from app stores. Apple sees these capabilities as a direct threat to their app store model: the web IS the potential rival store diminishing that sweet revenue close to 100 billion dollars a year.
Apple loves to claim in legal debates and at congressional hearings (which is a company smell) that web apps offer a viable alternative, thus denying an App Store monopoly. But behind the scenes, they've choked browser engine choice on iOS and crippled WebKit to undermine that exact web alternative. The ability to deliver compelling standalone experiences from the web stalls because major platforms like iOS can't be trusted to keep pace with industry standards.
It's like a public transport company deliberately making their service inaccessible: "Sure, wheelchair ramps are nice in theory, but since nobody really uses our trains this way (because we never installed toilets for this user group), forget the ramps. Sorry for the inconvenience it might cause to this group who tried using trains anyhow, instead of the suggested Apple Car with our innovative iPiss system. Oh, and those pesky other train companies we're forced to allow on our tracks? You have to make your trains just as inaccessible because, uh, Apple Car is just safer to deliver wheelchair experiences!
Security is not an argument. WebKit was capable of sandboxing websites, as are Gecko and Chromium. If Apple wants to protect its users and treat them as adults, they should warn them when downloading browsers, that is it. If you want to play apple safe, stay by Safari. You do not need web apps, anyways. Your system is not in danger if I download “shit” on MY iPhone. In addition, Apple is capable and it is not an unreasonable ask to make iOS secure for web browsers. Every other OS, including their own macOS, does this.
It's baffling how Apple underestimates the intelligence of judges and lawmakers. Should Apple try to cripple web capabilities for alternative browsers (directly like the current plan is or even subtly with keeping iOS sub-optimal regarding web app security), may those fines come and let them be staggering. Apple choked web capabilities with WebKit and now does this directly by misusing the power of iOS. Apple shouldn't get to block the web alternative to their App Store while pretending to offer one on legal battlefields.
For web apps you need developers who are not threatened by Apple and iOS to pull the plug on their product any time. Like they are trying to do now. Web app usage and adoption would also be boosted if the developer community stopped calling “install” what is a switch from tab to standalone mode. Using the word "install" undermines not just the inherent simplicity of web apps but the long established trust in the safety of browsing websites within a controlled tab. The word "install" creates a false sense of heightened risk and potential device alteration. This creates unnecessary confusion and suspicion, hindering user adoption. We should build upon the success of the web, emphasizing the truth that web apps are simply enhanced websites and leverage the implicit trust users already place in the web security model.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#3Apps are standalone user experiences. Native apps play by the operating system's security rules, while web domains operate within the sandbox of the browser. Web apps are just websites in standalone mode. If you misunderstand web apps as some wicked things coming out of your trusted browser to party on your device, you might not see clearly in the Apple vs. EU debate. Apple just made their true target crystal clear:…
I would like this thread to be a somewhat deeper discussion about DMA and web apps.
I would welcome true tech or legal arguments. But please if you are an apple-bot or rather less familiar with web tech, read more before commenting. I don't really want spam arguments like you claim I must be protected from myself using web apps via Gecko or Chromium. I am fully capable to make my decision and you can make yours: just NEVER download a browser engine other than Safari and you are Apple-Safe.
I miss a discussion about legalities and technicalities, about freedom of choice and competition. Apple must prove why users who trust other browser engines should not get access to web capabilities those OTHER browser companies find secure enough. Some potential talking points I would suggest:
– concrete examples of web capabilities that are NOT going to be available on iOS versus macOS (and every other OS): service workers, camera access, local storage persistence? Does anybody know?
– do you think Gecko and Chromium are just as safe on the CURRENT iOS as Webkit was when Apple allowed service workers for example? Apple cites dangers, are these theoretical dangers of potential not-industry-standard-browsers or does these dangers apply to Firefox and Chrome too? Is it really necessary and to what extent for Apple to make changes on iOS so that battle tested browsers from companies like Mozilla, Google, Microsoft could use modern web capabilities with clear conscience on iOS too? https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu#8
– what is this ”new integration architecture” that would make web apps more secure and how much effort would it really be to foster web app security on OS level if not already in place on iOS? Being Apple one of the richest companies in the world and having macOS that has a good enough architecture I am sure Apple legally is bound to change iOS to support secure web apps if the effort is reasonable.
– Apple was forced to allow competing browser engines and apparently must be forced to give other browser engines access to modern web capabilities. How?
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE... “In particular, each browser is built on a web browser engine, which is responsible for key browser functionality such as speed, reliability and web compatibility. When gatekeepers operate and impose web browser engines, they are in a position to determine the functionality and standards that will apply not only to their own web browsers, but also to competing web browsers and, in turn, to web software applications.”
Will this suffice legally or does the DMA text need improvement? I think this is enough since the text requires Apple to give way to alternative web browsers with the CLEAR INTENTION that the gatekeeper could not determine the functionality and web standards that are accessible on iOS. The text explicitly mentions web apps and that the goal is breaking a gatekeeper's power to cripple web apps.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#4Apps are standalone user experiences. Native apps play by the operating system's security rules, while web domains operate within the sandbox of the browser. Web apps are just websites in standalone mode. If you misunderstand web apps as some wicked things coming out of your trusted browser to party on your device, you might not see clearly in the Apple vs. EU debate. Apple just made their true target crystal clear:…
I would like this thread to be a somewhat deeper discussion about DMA and web apps. I would welcome true tech or legal arguments. But please if you are an apple-bot or rather less familiar with web tech, read more before commenting. I don't really want spam arguments like you claim I must be protected from myself using web apps via Gecko or Chromium. I am fully capable to make my decision and you can make yours: just…
> Will this suffice legally or does the DMA text need improvement?
We can't tell until this goes to court, and Apple was always going to fight every step of the way and make the EU take them to court.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#5The creation of the Vision Pro, and now this direct assault on the open web, makes me believe that Apple is no longer has the vision to lead the industry effectively. It's a shame because it has enormous momentum behind it, which means every bad decision, like this one, will be felt be millions of people for years.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#6Any chance we can get the original title which doesn't sound so childish:
It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
And if PWA were such a threat to Apple's business then why are they allowed in US.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#7The creation of the Vision Pro, and now this direct assault on the open web, makes me believe that Apple is no longer has the vision to lead the industry effectively. It's a shame because it has enormous momentum behind it, which means every bad decision, like this one, will be felt be millions of people for years.
could you please elaborate on how/what the Vision Pro contributes to this problem?
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#8Apps are standalone user experiences. Native apps play by the operating system's security rules, while web domains operate within the sandbox of the browser. Web apps are just websites in standalone mode. If you misunderstand web apps as some wicked things coming out of your trusted browser to party on your device, you might not see clearly in the Apple vs. EU debate. Apple just made their true target crystal clear:…
> Apple just made their true target crystal clear: they have always been aiming at web capabilities:
Not what Jobs said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vq993Td6ys
Originally there wasn’t an SDK at all.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would like this thread to be a somewhat deeper discussion about DMA and web apps. I would welcome true tech or legal arguments. But please if you are an apple-bot or rather less familiar with web tech, read more before commenting. I don't really want spam arguments like you claim I must be protected from myself using web apps via Gecko or Chromium. I am fully capable to make my decision and you can make yours: just…
> Will this suffice legally or does the DMA text need improvement? We can't tell until this goes to court, and Apple was always going to fight every step of the way and make the EU take them to court.
You are right. I was sure that something like this cannot happen and I was a bit in shock, I must admit. Web apps on macOS and on every other OS using modern web standards, it seemed the final step to allow alternative web engines on iOS. I mean the arguments of Apple are so weak. But I understand now that the existance of the DMA is not enough and Apple must be forced along the way. Just sad.
Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU
#10Apps are standalone user experiences. Native apps play by the operating system's security rules, while web domains operate within the sandbox of the browser. Web apps are just websites in standalone mode. If you misunderstand web apps as some wicked things coming out of your trusted browser to party on your device, you might not see clearly in the Apple vs. EU debate. Apple just made their true target crystal clear:…
I would like this thread to be a somewhat deeper discussion about DMA and web apps. I would welcome true tech or legal arguments. But please if you are an apple-bot or rather less familiar with web tech, read more before commenting. I don't really want spam arguments like you claim I must be protected from myself using web apps via Gecko or Chromium. I am fully capable to make my decision and you can make yours: just…
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