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The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

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Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#81

Post by phforms »

logicprog wrote: post #60

I like the idea of a more modern Emacs that uses the full power of Common Lisp a lot, but I worry I'd miss a lot of features. Does Lem have org mode, a good LSP system, something like projectile, and the ability to display images and GUI buttons and such? And most importantly, does it have an evil mode with doom/spacemacs style leader key support?

Take a look at the GitHub readme[1]: “Lem supports other programming languages thanks to its built-in LSP client. You can choose between an Emacs and a Vim mode.”.

Although I wish they’d explore the Kakoune/Helix style of editing too, which I think will become a major competitor to Vim (and I personally prefer it myself).

However, I am also worried that Lem won’t gain any traction because the Emacs ecosystem is just too vast and has too many killer apps (Magit, OrgMode, Dired, the amazing built-in Help/Documentation - to name a few).

But it may very well become a modern Emacs alternative if they focus on better user experience, leave behind some idiosyncrasies of the past and create great alternatives or ports of Emacs’s most appreciated plugins. There is a great opportunity in starting from scratch, but I guess it is also a huge challenge to compete against decades of development, a huge community and a rich ecosystem.

[1]: https://github.com/lem-project/lem

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#82

Post by tshirttime »

samatman wrote: post #76
BeetleB wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I use VSCode to: - Read and reply to my emails? - Manage TODOs across domains (so e.g. I can make a TODO that has a link to a specific email)? - Use it as a Mastodon client (read and write toots, boost them, favorite them, etc) - Scrape a web site (several pages), getting only the relevant content[1] - Bulk rename/copy lots of files with a custom naming algorithm - Chat on IRC - Use it as a spreadsheet - Do numer…

I think it's fair to say that most people don't need, or even want, their IDE/text editor to do a bunch of stuff that can be done with other programs. I know Emacs people like it (I was, at one time, an Emacs person), and that's great, but "can your text editor/IDE do a bunch of not-text-editor-slash-IDE stuff?" is a weird gotcha. Sometimes you want to buy your dessert topping and floor wax in separate cans, y'know?

Emacs is the can class, not two can instances. The power comes from a single can interface, and leveraging one's can-fu across multiple tasks. Also, everyone enjoys some foot cheese in their whipped cream.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#83

Post by stolen_biscuit »

GrumpySloth wrote: post #69
globular-toast wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly not licensed under the GPL.

I can understand wanting to restrict use of something a person created using a restrictive licence. I can’t understand being sad about someone else not restricting what they created. To me it looks like someone being sad after seeing someone else giving out free ice cream, even though the person being sad didn’t contribute to making the ice cream.

Calling the GPL a restrictive license is a bit like saying you can't cut down the trees in a public park and sell the wood is restrictive.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#84

Post by dctoedt »

riddley wrote: post #27

It's so crazy to think the original emacs was a commercial product.

In the mid-1980s there was a commercial Emacs workalike (on floppy disks) for the IBM PC, called The Final Word, later acquired by Borland and renamed Sprint. For printing, it featured a workalike of Scribe, an early text markup language and precursor to HTML by Brian Reid. In law school I'd used a TOPS-20 Emacs and Scribe for law-review work, so later I bought The Final Word and an early HP LaserJet printer to produce camera-ready copy for my first book. Good times (sort of).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(word_processor)

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#85

Post by GrumpySloth »

stolen_biscuit wrote: post #83
GrumpySloth wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand wanting to restrict use of something a person created using a restrictive licence. I can’t understand being sad about someone else not restricting what they created. To me it looks like someone being sad after seeing someone else giving out free ice cream, even though the person being sad didn’t contribute to making the ice cream.

Calling the GPL a restrictive license is a bit like saying you can't cut down the trees in a public park and sell the wood is restrictive.

That analogy would make sense only if cutting trees left the trees intact and didn’t annoy people in the park with noise etc. Alas, it’s nonsense.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#86

Post by globular-toast »

GrumpySloth wrote: post #69
globular-toast wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly not licensed under the GPL.

I can understand wanting to restrict use of something a person created using a restrictive licence. I can’t understand being sad about someone else not restricting what they created. To me it looks like someone being sad after seeing someone else giving out free ice cream, even though the person being sad didn’t contribute to making the ice cream.

GPL is more free than MIT, not less. I would never make significant contributions to a non-GPL project.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#87

Post by BeetleB »

samatman wrote: post #76
BeetleB wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I use VSCode to: - Read and reply to my emails? - Manage TODOs across domains (so e.g. I can make a TODO that has a link to a specific email)? - Use it as a Mastodon client (read and write toots, boost them, favorite them, etc) - Scrape a web site (several pages), getting only the relevant content[1] - Bulk rename/copy lots of files with a custom naming algorithm - Chat on IRC - Use it as a spreadsheet - Do numer…

I think it's fair to say that most people don't need, or even want, their IDE/text editor to do a bunch of stuff that can be done with other programs. I know Emacs people like it (I was, at one time, an Emacs person), and that's great, but "can your text editor/IDE do a bunch of not-text-editor-slash-IDE stuff?" is a weird gotcha. Sometimes you want to buy your dessert topping and floor wax in separate cans, y'know?

Most people don't need or want all the UNIX tools' capabilities. Does it make sense to compare the Windows command environment with the Linux one and say "Don't include all these capabilities in the analysis?"

> but "can your text editor/IDE do a bunch of not-text-editor-slash-IDE stuff?" is a weird gotcha.

It's not a weird gotcha when dismissing the tool. If you want to artificially narrow the comparison to "writing SW" (which is even narrower than text editing), then by all means - VSCode is the superior tool. But why stop there? The bulk of PC/laptop users use Notepad as their editor, and have no use for VSCode's capabilities. Shall we dismiss all the cool things in VSCode for it?

And sorry, what? Non-editor stuff? About half the items I listed are editor related.

> Sometimes you want to buy your dessert topping and floor wax in separate cans, y'know?

True, but wouldn't it be at least nice if you could buy both cans from the same store, using the same currency?

No one's arguing using only one tool. As I write this, I have both VSCode and Emacs windows open. Use the tool for its strengths. But blanket comparing VSCode with Emacs is silly - it's like comparing Excel with all of Linux. One is an application. The other is a platform. Excel is easily the best spreadsheet out there, but for many people, Linux is much more useful than Excel.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#88

Post by BeetleB »

idispatch wrote: post #72
BeetleB wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in 10 years, there will be a comment saying "XYZ is why VSCode is not as relevant as it once was." And Emacs will still be around.

And VSCode will still be around.

Just as Sublime Text is still around :-)

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#89

Post by globular-toast »

kyykky wrote: post #52
globular-toast wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly not licensed under the GPL.

Is there a benefit in using GPL for text editors?

Licences like MIT optimise individual freedom: they give each user the freedom to do anything including restricting the freedom of others.

Licences like GPL optimise community freedom: they give each user the freedom to do anything except restricting the freedom of others.

Think of it like local vs global optimisation.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#90

Post by tmtvl »

GrumpySloth wrote: post #69
globular-toast wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly not licensed under the GPL.

I can understand wanting to restrict use of something a person created using a restrictive licence. I can’t understand being sad about someone else not restricting what they created. To me it looks like someone being sad after seeing someone else giving out free ice cream, even though the person being sad didn’t contribute to making the ice cream.

My view on the GPL is that it's freedom-preserving, like how a law forbidding the enslavement of people is freedom-preserving, even though it technically restricts a freedom. That's why I look more favourably on GPL software than software with a so-called 'permissive' license.
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